Church politics and spiritual life

Ekaterina · Post by **Ekaterina** » Mon 22 January 2007 9:07 am

Theophane....
In other words .... do as I do or you are not doing it right?

I did did not say that Helen was judging, I said she was falling into that realm... I urged caution.

While it is true that we help each other, the approach you take to that help is not the one you advocate. If the road to salvation must be only along the road you deem to be correct then that is not salvation. Just because not everyone demonstrates publicly his or her Orthodox praxis....does not mean there isn't one. Just because someone does not demonstrate what YOU feel to be the proper behavior does not mean that there is none. This is a very hard place to be .... new, primed, full of zeal and then to see others aroound you with what you terms as lacking. BTDT....sorry but it is not good Orthodox praxis to judge (and it is judging) others by what you in your zeal preceive to be the RIGHT way. What if you are wrong?

As to hatred...it is a fine edged sword that is impossible to walk without injury to oneself. Even when you erroneously judge it to be righteous hatred. Humans are simply incapable of it.

As to that whole Soviet thing....Soviet no longer exits, except in the hearts and minds of those who would usurp God's role to punish and revenge.

If you believe in God then I cannot see how you cannot believe that He is with His Church. If you believe in God, then I cannot see how you do not believe that He is guiding it and us.

For myself I will not hate...I will try not to judge and I will hope in God's mercy and guidance.

Katya

drewmeister2 · Post by **drewmeister2** » Mon 22 January 2007 4:03 pm

helen wrote:
Thankyou for your reply drewmeister. Another thing that is a bit unsettling is the fact that other jursidictions are unfamiliar territory for me. I've never really been exposed to them or been able to see for myself what the environment is like. I guess I'm just a bit worried that it might be a bit full on with people talking politics all the time. Would you (or anyone else) be so kind as to write me a bit about your Church's environment/atmosphere/direction/activities/guiding philosophy etc.

I would say some parishes unfortunately tend to lean to politics, but from what I hear, this is NOT the majority of parishes. Every parish will have problems, this may be a problem for a parish near you. You really have to go to the parish to see what it is like, as everyone's opinions of their parish may be different.

drewmeister2 · Post by **drewmeister2** » Mon 22 January 2007 4:08 pm

helen wrote:
Also drewmeister:

You rightly point out that traditionalists are after all humans as well, with weakness's just like everyone - but I think what I mean more is that some traditionalists apply very strict standards to confession of Orthodoxy but do not think it necessary to apply the same standards to praxis. It's not that they fall, it's that they don't think it's as important or just important. And if someone for whatever reason does not profess their same confession then they are considered a betrayer of Christ, but betrayals of Christ that may occur in their chosen un-Orthodox lifestyle decisions are considered secondary. This is what I mean.

I wouldn't say this so much. I would say that the World Orthodox parishes tend to be much more lenient in their praxis than True Orthodox Synods, as the World Orthodox, because of their heresy, are losing their Orthodoxy, not only the Orthodoxy of their teachings, but the Orthodoxy of their praxis. What you may be seeing, too, is economia practiced by spiritual fathers. Orthodoxy isn't about applying the same rules for everybody, but rather helping each person obtain salvation, and in some cases, the priest/spritiual father has to meet the person where that person is. True Orthodoxy most definately upholds Orthodox praxis, but at the same time, some are weaker than others, and they can't necessarily be perfect, so to speak, in their praxis just yet.

GOCTheophan · Post by **GOCTheophan** » Mon 22 January 2007 5:43 pm

drewmeister2 wrote:
helen wrote:
Thankyou for your reply drewmeister. Another thing that is a bit unsettling is the fact that other jursidictions are unfamiliar territory for me. I've never really been exposed to them or been able to see for myself what the environment is like. I guess I'm just a bit worried that it might be a bit full on with people talking politics all the time. Would you (or anyone else) be so kind as to write me a bit about your Church's environment/atmosphere/direction/activities/guiding philosophy etc.

I would say some parishes unfortunately tend to lean to politics, but from what I hear, this is NOT the majority of parishes. Every parish will have problems, this may be a problem for a parish near you. You really have to go to the parish to see what it is like, as everyone's opinions of their parish may be different.

I know that the majiority of my parish probably gives maybe too little time to Church politics. Obviously I probably give too much though- however lists such as this will attract "my type"....That has to be borne in mind.

Theophan.

GOCTheophan · Post by **GOCTheophan** » Mon 22 January 2007 5:50 pm

Ekaterina wrote:
Theophane....
In other words .... do as I do or you are not doing it right?

I did did not say that Helen was judging, I said she was falling into that realm... I urged caution.

While it is true that we help each other, the approach you take to that help is not the one you advocate. If the road to salvation must be only along the road you deem to be correct then that is not salvation. Just because not everyone demonstrates publicly his or her Orthodox praxis....does not mean there isn't one. Just because someone does not demonstrate what YOU feel to be the proper behavior does not mean that there is none. This is a very hard place to be .... new, primed, full of zeal and then to see others aroound you with what you terms as lacking. BTDT....sorry but it is not good Orthodox praxis to judge (and it is judging) others by what you in your zeal preceive to be the RIGHT way. What if you are wrong?

Katya

I never said that because someone doesnt demonstrate that praxis publically that there isnt one.

I never said that if someone doesnt demonstrate what I feel to be proper behaviour doesnt mean that it isnt proper in God's eyes.

We shouldnt judge other persons, but we must judge what is right in terms of Faith, and if I am wrong well....hell awaits (and even if im right it probably awaits all the same for other reasons).

I FELT Helen raised a very valid concern about the True Orthodox world (one that I shared for a long time) and was right to air it. I FELT that you misjudged her- if I am wrong than I ask forgiveness.

Theophan.

GOCTheophan · Post by **GOCTheophan** » Mon 22 January 2007 5:57 pm

Ekaterina wrote:
As to that whole Soviet thing....Soviet no longer exits, except in the hearts and minds of those who would usurp God's role to punish and revenge.

If you believe in God then I cannot see how you cannot believe that He is with His Church. If you believe in God, then I cannot see how you do not believe that He is guiding it and us.

For myself I will not hate...I will try not to judge and I will hope in God's mercy and guidance.

Katya

Nonsense!

Look at the lies about Met Vitaly being senile, what do you call them? What about the fact that KGB agents (and as Putin told us there is no such thing as an ex-KGB agent) head by "Church" and State in modern Russia? Please Katya examine the facts...

God is with His Church, saving all who wish to be saved from the cruel waves of this world, their own passions and sins and the devil. It is we who seperate ourselves from His Body and His Spirit...

Theophan.

Helen · Post by **Helen** » Tue 23 January 2007 12:20 am

Wow! Thanks for the great food for thought. When I finish eating I'll let you add to the discussion