Thoughts on World Orthodoxy and ROCOR

[Anastasios]

Anastasios,

Did your professor ever let you know exactly what is going on at WCC and NCC meetings these days? I know Orthodox participation was supposed to have over the past year as a result of study, reflection, which resulted in the releasing of that large document by the Orthodox that examines our role in the WCC and NCC. Is there straight up joint prayer with heterodox now? Do they really discuss the "Church" in terms of all Christian confessions?

Thanks!

No. The Orthodox delegates continue to this day to interupt their Protestant co-delegates at meetings and tell them that "we are sorry but as Fr. Florovosky pointed out, we do not view the Church as divided." My SVOTS prof. said it was very hard for him to be at the WCC because while many of the Protestants there were his friends and he saw that they sincerely believed that they were "creating the Church", he knew they were wrong and had to tell them such. My prof. was very strongly an "ecumenist" in the sense that he believes in participating and explaining ad nauseam to the Protestants the truth, and he believes that the separations between us do us practical harm in the world, but he does NOT believe in the branch theory, and he made that quite clear to the class.

ISTM that from his telling of the story, the Orthodox delegation itself still by and large maintains the Orthodox witness, even if some delegates over time have expressed ecumenistic tendencies.

What's my personal opinion? I think it's good to go to these things and explain the differences, but I think some of them are not being clear enough of their purpose and are being misunderstood (while a minority of individuals may actually be branch theorists). Clear enough means that everyone who WITNESSES such gatherings should know what the Orthodox position is, not just the other delegates.

As far as prayer, my prof. told us that if it was plain jane trinitarian prayer out of classic texts they would pray, as individuals, at the assemblies, but that the Orthodox consitently struck out references to "God our Mother", a "divided Church", and other liberalities.

All of the accounts are based on my recollections from class lectures, so any inaccuracies are my responsibilities.

anastasios

[Arsenios]

For Whom The Bell Tolls

Ringing bells sound, their one note song sustaining on and on
Under cover of fog and mist they cry their warning
Shed your apathy! they caution, and
And shed your fears and worries!
Intervolved we can carry the day,
But apart we shall falter and fall,
None being left to witness to the truth.

Oblique words answer in return:
Really, is it so bad as you make it out to be?
Truly things will be fine, just wait and you will see!
Have we united with any heretics or called them ours?
Only foolish zealots wish to trample our fun and flowers!
Do even the heathen or heterodox act as you do?
Obviously convert baggage is the problem with you!
Or maybe it's just ignorance, of the truth you have nary a clue!

Can you be serious? Are you blind? the bells asked boldly aloud
How can you ignore all the warning signs we are sounding?
Unless you keep your head in the sand, surely you know?
Raging ecumenists awake! You have prayers with non-Christians?
Communion and concelebration with heretics? Is this what you call love?
How can you pretend that this is not important? This is hatred of neighbors!

Oh come now, the oblique one responds yet again
Unless you are schismatics you do not worry of such things
Tell us how many people are following you? Few I bet!
Shall we say that the Church is in but a few scattered parishes?
I'd change if there were serious mistakes going on,
But announcing dire warnings over small issues does nothing but divide!
Egress all you want, but the Church will declare that you are outside of her!

Rebellion is not what we are looking for, the bells pleads one last time,
United in one true faith, in love: that is what we seek,
Yet, shall we let heresy rule so that we can appear to be united?
Shall we take part in helping spiritually murder millions?
Is this what the Church of Christ does today?
Aweful will be that judgment day for us if we continue on such a road!

[Methodius]

Awesome poem! BTW are you going to ever finish that story you started?

[Arsenios]

I do not recall saying that it was I who started it but only I happen to be the one who is posting it! The answer to your question however is that yes soon more of that story will be posted I just have been a bit tied up and have not had the chance to get it up. In the Lord's time! Until then you can just wonder why Greg is looking at the leaves.

[Savva24]

No. The Orthodox delegates continue to this day to interupt their Protestant co-delegates at meetings and tell them that "we are sorry but as Fr. Florovosky pointed out, we do not view the Church as divided." My SVOTS prof. said it was very hard for him to be at the WCC because while many of the Protestants there were his friends and he saw that they sincerely believed that they were "creating the Church", he knew they were wrong and had to tell them such. My prof. was very strongly an "ecumenist" in the sense that he believes in participating and explaining ad nauseam to the Protestants the truth, and he believes that the separations between us do us practical harm in the world, but he does NOT believe in the branch theory, and he made that quite clear to the class.

Dear Athanasios,

I see your proffessor's point, but I wonder if he has ever considered that the main cause of the ''separations between us'' is precisely the movement he believes so much in. Maybe you could ask him why it is so important to preach so much to Protestants for eternity (who will never hear you anyway) at the expense of your own family members. I am not asking to taunt, I really wonder why Ecumenists are so interested in reuniting with their ''estranged brethren'' when they seem to really care less about their own Orthodox who have separated from them. I say this because they always seem more than ready to darn Old Calanderist to hell in a second but would never say anything like that about their heretic friends. If the all of the Orthodox Churches pulled out of the Ecumenical movement, what a real union in Truth we could have and be a force in the world.

Having said this, what I think is one of the main reasons for the Orthodox persistence in the Ecumenical movement is that it really does help in the practical sence. It seems that the WCC really does try to help Orthodox (albeit at the expense of Truth). Not condoning it, perhaps we can understand and compassionatly relate to suffering Churches that choose to participate. For example, I think the Serbian Church gets some help (not enough obviously) from the WCC with the Kosovo situation. Or perhaps the Patriarchate of Constantinple gets some assistance with the Turks. I have no proof of this (perhaps someone else does) but I always felt that this was one of the main reasons for Orthodox participation in Ecumenism, if not the only reason. Whatever the case, I know it is wrong; I am only trying to say that we can understand that in suffering some capitulate and it would be hard for us to always judge, not having gone through the same. I don't know, just some thoughts and perhaps some justification for ROCORs keeping ties with the Serbian Church, out of economia. What do you think?

In Christ,

Nicholas (savva)

[Justin Kissel]

I have heard stories that would seem to evidence your thoughts, Savva. Apparently part of the theological school in Belgrade was built through funds supplied by the WCC. I also heard a story about someone in Russia being persecuted, and apparently someone got the story out and said what was going on in front of the WCC (when they were meeting in Africa some year) and they worked fast to get the person out of the Soviet Union. (Though they apparently didn't worry about helping the millions of other sufferers ). I think ecumenists really do think they are "witnessing to Orthodoxy"; they mistake academic, intellectual interest for real, heart-felt interest.

[Anastasios]

I think ecumenists really do think they are "witnessing to Orthodoxy"; they mistake academic, intellectual interest for real, heart-felt interest.

Justin,

Again, we can't lump all Orthodox "ecumenists" together in one pot. Are there people in the WCC that fit the above description? Yes. Are they all like that, or are the majority like that? Doubtful.

I think my professor friend would probably be surprised to be labelled thusly. He and some of the other Orthodox ecumenists I have met are very heart-felt, very devout personally, and very much want to bring others to the Truth, which is why they subject themselves to years of frustration. Remember, I see these people every day and I can gauge them; maybe not well but I see what I see. Academic, intellectual types do exist, but they aren't in Church doing prostrations, fasting, and singing in the choir regularly. "Academic types" (the true ones that I have met--I am not denying they exist) are the types that are infrequently in chapel, or when there they are "analyzing" it more than participating. God forgive me for judging even these "academic types" if I am guilty of such, but I believe I am merely stating an observation.

I think that you have a fantasy (in the true, sincere sense of the word) of what life is like at seminaries, WCC meetings, New Calendrist Synodal meetings, etc. Since you cannot visit the WCC meetings in Europe probably I would invite you to visit St. Vladimir's Seminary to see what it is like. I will be glad to give you and your wife hospitality and after such a visit, even if you come away still believing the St. Vladimir's Seminary way to be unOrthodox, you will at least have first hand knowledge and experience. I would be happy to even introduce you to some real Orthodox ecumenists and have you ask them questions if you would like. Contact me via private message if you are so inclined.

Savva,

I will respond to your post shortly.