Thoughts on World Orthodoxy and ROCOR

Feel free to tell our little section of the Internet why you're right. Forum rules apply.


Justin Kissel

Thoughts on World Orthodoxy and ROCOR

Post by Justin Kissel »

Lately, I've been thinking a lot more about the situation we (tradtionalists) are all in. This has not been just an "intellectual exercise," but something that practically, intimately effects me on the personal level. What follows are some thoughts that have developed, which I ask all of you to comment on. I know some will agree with certain things I say, and some will disagree with certain things: if you would, please say why you agree or disagree.

Archbishop Chrysostomos once said that "those who 'hunt down' heretics, who create strife and discord in the Church by unfounded and supercilious accusations of heresy, and who act out of pride and wrath in condemning those who may innocently hold wrong beliefs--these very same individuals are acting within the spirit of heresy itself. A true Christian seeks to correct those in error, to lead them with love, and to avoid strife and discord. A true Christian does not seek out errors in others, but examines first his own shortcomings." It is in this spirit that I make this post.

I am not going to "name names". The purpose of this post is not to single out offenders, but just to discuss basic principles and questions. I am confused about some very foundational things at this point: how can I judge someone according to my own chaotic understanding? This post is rather an attempt to bring some end to the chaos and come out into the light.

As to the actual lapses world Orthodoxy has fallen into, I think they can be grouped into three general types: 1) Dogmatic errors, 2) Generally accepted practical/canonical lapses, and 3) Sproadic, tacitly approved (or ignored) practical/canonical lapses. Here's the errors or lapses that most traditionalists would recognize as problems:

3) Sproadic, tacitly approved (or ignored) practical/canonical lapses

  • Usage of the full Gregorian calendar so that Pascha is always at the same time as the Easter of western Christians
  • Continued support for married bishops
  • The rise in support--albeit minor at this point--for female priests
  • General confessions given
  • Strange teachings emanating from world Orthodox seminaries
  • Giving antidoran to those not in the Church

2) Generally accepted practical/canonical lapses

  • Usage of the Gregorian calendar
  • Praying with the heterodox and non-Christians.
  • Various gestures of friendship with Roman Catholics which violate Christian love (dropping of anathemas, etc.)
  • Church canons disregarded with no justifiable explanation (kneeling on sundays, etc.)
  • Protestantized scholarship among theologians in patristics, liturgics, and other areas
  • Lack of, and sometimes complete absense of, a monastic presence
  • Disregard for fasting and other ascetic virtues
  • Various lapses in morality (Contraception, etc.)

1) Dogmatic errors

  • Communion and Concelebration with Monophysites
  • Acceptance of Roman Catholic and Anglican sacraments as having some degree of grace
  • Allowing Orthodox to attend Anglican services and to receive communion
  • Continued participation in the ecumenical movement

(It should be noted that in the case of 3 and 2, the error will sometimes be on the part of the priest or bishop, and the person "below them"--if I may use such a term--can be mostly innocent. An example of this would be giving antidoran to inquirers.)

Those who have fallen into the dogmatic errors must therefore be considered heretics, for they accept either heretical beliefs (and have practices that demonstrate this) or they accept heretical groups (and have practices that demonstrate this). Put shortly: to be in communion with a heretic, or to accept heretical beliefs, makes one a heretic.

However, each bishop must be evaluated differently. We cannot condemn every Church and every bishop within it for dogmatic errors if every bishop has not fallen into the errors. It might be possible that the majority of a Church has fallen into error, but that some bishops have resisted this error and fought against it. We would be no better than the neo-papal-patriarchalists if we tried to tie everything in with certain "central authorities," and left off true Orthodoxy ecclesiology, which sees each bishop as a beacon of light by himself--even apart from those bishops who are "above him".

There are many examples in Church history of bishops from insignifcant bishoprics taking stands against errors of the rest of their local Church. When such stands are taken today, these bishops should be commended, and not grouped together with the bishops whom they are fighting against! We must distinquish who stands where, and not be hasty to condemn entire Churches or to think that because the "head" of a church has fallen, that the entire Church will fall. Christ is indeed the head of each local Orthodox Church, just because the Patriarch falls that doesn't mean that the entire Church has fallen.

So what of cyprianite ecclesiology? The cyprianite ecclesiology seems perfectly acceptable when applied to the proper situations. Regarding groups 2 and 3 mentioned above (ie. non-dogmatic lapses), I think that cyprianite ecclesiology is a tenable option. In fact, I think it is the most sensible path to take in a situation where only lapses such as those seen in 2 and 3 have taken place. Where cyprianite ecclesiology isn't tenable (in my prideful, fallible opinion) is in cases where the errors of number 1 have happened. When there are dogmatic errors, and these errors have continued for some time and are apparently not going to be corrected, then something more than a mere "walling off" is necessary.

So what of ROCOR? As said above, discernment is needed when looking at who she is in communion with. The Serbs, the JP, the Cyprianites, and the Bulgarians and Romanians all seem like different situations to me, and we would not only have to seperate each of these groups and examine them seperately, but if we are going to be faithful to our Orthodox tradition we would have to look at the position of the varying bishops within these groups. This isn't something I propose we do here. :)

Justin

Edit--Added something I forgot to add to this post (I composed the post offline and meant to add the quote by Chrysostomos but forgot to do so before I posted! :oops: )

Last edited by Justin Kissel on Tue 19 August 2003 12:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Natasha
Sr Member
Posts: 517
Joined: Sat 22 March 2003 2:52 pm

RE:

Post by Natasha »

Agreed, agreed, agreed!

Those are basic, fundamental doctrines, traditions, and truths of the Russian Orthodox Church. I don't see how anyone could dare disagree (but that's why I am a traditionalist :wink: )

Anastasios
Sr Member
Posts: 886
Joined: Thu 7 November 2002 11:40 pm
Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC-Archbishop Kallinikos
Location: Raleigh, NC
Contact:

Post by Anastasios »

Good points, Justin, but you cannot validly list support for married bishops as wrong. The Church had married bishops officially until the 7th century and unofficially it occured in limited areas until in the 12th century Emperor Isaac Angelos finally enforced the ban, and it is only a matter of discipline. At any time it can be restored if the Church in council agrees to issue a canon superceeding the decree of the Council in Trullo.

To say that the Church cannot change its canons seems to me to put one in the category that Fr. Georges Florovsky deemed "a monophysite understanding of ecclesiology" in his work "Bible, Church and Tradition: An Eastern Orthodox View" in that to say such would mean that one would be saying that the Church is of purely divine origin and unchangeable in its disciplines (hence monophysitic) whereas the Church in Orthodox thought is the Body of the theanthropic Jesus Christ, and hence has divine and human qualities in its administration and life.

anastasios

Disclaimer: Many older posts were made before my baptism and thus may not reflect an Orthodox point of view.
Please do not message me with questions about the forum or moderation requests. Jonathan Gress (jgress) will be able to assist you.
Please note that I do not subscribe to "Old Calendar Ecumenism" and believe that only the Synod of Archbishop Kallinikos is the canonical GOC of Greece. I do believe, however, that we can break down barriers and misunderstandings through prayer and discussion on forums such as this one.

User avatar
Methodius
Member
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue 25 February 2003 5:50 pm

Questions

Post by Methodius »

If Church A's Patriarch communes and concelebrates with heretics and instructs all his priests and bishops to do the same, and most do, can we not clearly call that Church heretical?

If Church E's Patriarchs have a regular habit on concelebrating with and communing heretics and mnay of his bishops and priests do the same, can we not clearly call that Church heretical? If Church G under him says these heretics he concelebrates and communes have grace, is not the Church obviously under the influence of heresy?

Scripture and the fathers say to try and try to get a brother to change from his error but if after 3 or 4 times he will not admit wrong nor try toturn from it, you must consider him lost and move on.

As OOD has often said, the Canons do not suggest or simply imply, they demand over and over again in canon after canon that we remove ourselves from any bishop that teaches heresy. We also must not have communion ith him (bein in communion with him) or we are guilty of his heresy.

Can heretics have grace in their mysteries? Can anyone in communion with a heretic be anything other than a heretic? If so, does this darn Church R if it is in communion with Church J who is in communion with Churches A, G and E?

I ask to see people answers and explanations of why they answer the way they do.

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Anastasios,

I didn't say we couldn't have canons now that were different (ie. contradicted) earlier canons. If we had a canon on the non-allowance of slavery today, for example (which I would not be opposed to), that would be totally at odds with the Church canons that talked about proper treatment of slaves and proper conduct by slaves. I was not saying that married hierarchs is not allowed, as though it had never been done (I too read the same book you mentioned before on this issue in your conversation with OOD--though it was so distorted that I had to put it down after a time). So... your remarks are unfortunately (or for me, I guess, fortunately) not relevant. I wasn't saying what you assumed I was saying ;) I only say that this is something that should not change now, and therefore to try and change it is a lapse; I didn't say that this is an issue that could not ever be changed, if the circumstances required it.

I must also admit--and I'm trying to be nice :) please don't take this the wrong way--that I'm a bit confused by your response. I think this first post of mine is a much harder stance than I had been taking, but you still agree with it for the most part? For instance, I called continued participation in the Ecumenical movement a dogmatic error, and said that "those who have fallen into the dogmatic errors must therefore be considered heretics" (based on the belief that "ecumenism is a pan-heresy"). Do you agree with this?

User avatar
Julianna
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: Fri 23 May 2003 4:12 pm
Location: Schnectady
Contact:

Please tell me I'm misunderstanding you!

Post by Julianna »

You're saying that you'd think in the post Concilliar Church a Patriarch and most of his bishops and priests could be bald faced teaching declared, condemned heresies and that whole pseudosynogague and those communing commemorationg and concelebrating with these heretics would not be heretical? How?

Image

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Julianna, Methodius,

Who are you talking to?

As for my answer, just in case you are talking to me, I think I articulated things as clearly and explicitly as I'm willing and able to do at this point:

...to be in communion with a heretic, or to accept heretical beliefs, makes one a heretic.

However, I'm not going to fall into a traditionalist version of neo-papal-patriarchalism, and condemn a bishop when he is standing against the errors of the other bishops in his Church, just because he's in "the Local Church of X" or "the autocephalous X Church". As Saint Justin Popovich said in his work on the proposed Ecumenical Council:

Moreover, is it correct, is it Orthodox to have such representations of the Orthodox Churches at various pan Orthodox gatherings on Rhodes or in Geneva? The representatives of Constantinople who began this system of representation of Orthodox Churches at the councils and those who accept this principle which, according to their theory, is in accord with the "system of autocephalous and autonomous" local Churches - they have forgotten that such a principle in fact contradicts the conciliar tradition of Orthodoxy. Unfortunately this principle of representation was accepted quickly and by all the other Orthodox: sometimes silently, sometimes with voted protests, but forgetting that the Orthodox Church, in its nature and its dogmatically unchanging constitution is episcopal and centred in the bishops. For the bishop and the faithful gathered around him are the expression and manifestation of the Church as the Body of Christ, especially in the Holy Liturgy: the Church is Apostolic and Catholic only by virtue of its bishops, insofar as they are the heads of true ecclesiastical units, the dioceses. At the same time, the other, historically later and variable forms of church organisation of the Orthodox Church: the metropolias, archdioceses, patriarchates, pentarchias, autocephalies, autonomies, etc., however many there may be or shall be, cannot have and do not have a determining and decisive significance in the conciliar system of the Orthodox Church. Furthermore, they may constitute an obstacle in the correct functioning of the conciliar principle if they obstruct and reject the episcopal character and structure of the Church and of the Churches. Here, undoubtedly, is to be found the primary difference between Orthodox and papal ecclesiology. - On A Summoning Of The Great Council Of The Orthodox Church

If you put the first and second quote together, that is my position.

Post Reply