Good Works of Ecumenists and Heterodox Gain Nothing

[frphoti]

Let me clarify: The fathers were right in their positions regarding those outside the Church. I don't want to seem like I am attempting to negate what they said regarding this. I should have specified that what I said above is the way I try to see it. I think we all struggle with the topic when it comes to our relatives or friends who aren't Orthodox, but are all around good people. What is their part in everything? What is their lot? Can things really be that simple, that cut-and-dry?

I see the people floating around hanging on the flotsam and jetsam during the (modern crazy, confusing contemporary) flood and I think "Wow. I really need to be in this Ark." I hope and pray that all are saved, though I know some won't. I hope that in my hubris, I am not deathly ill on the Ark. I hope as well that I, in my priesthood, keep my (church) family safely aboard with me until the land should dry up. That's where I leave it. The fathers were true Theologians, and I am not. I trust their words and apply them to my life, and the lives of the people God has entrusted to me. Anything beyond that -like say, judging the salvation of others- I have not been called to do.

We have all been entrusted with the care of our fellow man, and to instruct them when they are ill -which is not judgement- to seek therapy and healing out of love for them. Only the Church can truly provide this. It's the difference of walking into a grocery/drug store and trying to heal your cancer vs. going to the hospital and seeing a doctor (all complaints about modern medicine aside). Sure, you can buy some salves and band-aids, but ultimately you are just delaying your healing, and hastening your demise.

[Matthew]

Yes, I did not take your words as suggesting a watering down of the confession of the salvation in the Church alone, but your additional comments are a helpful expression of how we can look at these issues. Thank you Fr. Photi.

[frphoti]

I made the addendum above because, this being a forum, SOMEONE is going to read it and take it wrong or slander me because of it. You can't agree with everyone all of the time. A great Bishop friend of mine made the comment, "...I have concluded that being slandered is something that "goes with the territory" as they say - it is almost a part of our job description." He put it well.

[Matthew]

Yes, the need to be impervious through humility to slander and criticism is a difficult but necessary virtue for the clergy, but also for us layfolk.

[Jean-Serge]

Suppose, someone is married to a Catholic, and its time for prayer with the children at the dinner table.

Now, do you ask the partner to leave because they are not Orthodox and they cannot pray together?

Now the wife loves the husband, but she is orthodox, how would she feel when people are saying that her husband is not going to heaven because he is not orthodox?

Christian wedding and marriage is about working on one's salvation helping one another in the faith. It is the reason why the orthodox church always condemned mixed marriages. How is it possible to create a small church if both have different religions? Today, in world orthodoxy, only the church of Georgia does not celebrate mixed weddings.

This said, the case you describe must take into account what is praying with. When non orthodox come into orthodox churches, they attend the services and are not asked to leave. Praying with implies more than being at the same time and place, which can be pure chance. It implies the desire to share a common prayer. In the case you give, the orthodox should conduct the prayer and the heterodox listen but take no part to it .

[Maria]

Suppose, someone is married to a Catholic, and its time for prayer with the children at the dinner table.

Now, do you ask the partner to leave because they are not Orthodox and they cannot pray together?

Now the wife loves the husband, but she is orthodox, how would she feel when people are saying that her husband is not going to heaven because he is not orthodox?

Christian wedding and marriage is about working on one's salvation helping one another in the faith. It is the reason why the orthodox church always condemned mixed marriages. How is it possible to create a small church if both have different religions? Today, in world orthodoxy, only the church of Georgia does not celebrate mixed weddings.

This said, the case you describe must take into account what is praying with. When non orthodox come into orthodox churches, they attend the services and are not asked to leave. Praying with implies more than being at the same time and place, which can be pure chance. It implies the desire to share a common prayer. In the case you give, the orthodox should conduct the prayer and the heterodox listen but take no part to it .

A serious problem occurs when the father of the house (non-Orthodox husband), who is supposed to be the spiritual head of the family, is told to be quiet by the Orthodox wife as she prays. It will not work. There is a thread in another board where a man describes his frustrations because his wife is converting to Orthodoxy, while he does not feel led to convert.

The reverse situation is described in another board, where the husband is an inquirer into Orthodoxy, but his wife is a fundamentalist who thinks that Orthodoxy is a cult. After conferring with her mother and friends, she just announced that their marriage was over. His inquiry into Orthodoxy was too much for her. Thankfully, they do not have any children.

[Matthew]

Christian wedding and marriage is about working on one's salvation helping one another in the faith. It is the reason why the orthodox church always condemned mixed marriages. How is it possible to create a small church if both have different religions? Today, in world orthodoxy, only the church of Georgia does not celebrate mixed weddings.

This said, the case you describe must take into account what is praying with. When non orthodox come into orthodox churches, they attend the services and are not asked to leave. Praying with implies more than being at the same time and place, which can be pure chance. It implies the desire to share a common prayer. In the case you give, the orthodox should conduct the prayer and the heterodox listen but take no part to it .

What about being invited over to a heterodox Christian friend's home for a meal? When they pray before the meal are you not participating in their prayer by sitting at the same table with them at that time. The action of the body suggests one is for you are seated at the same table of offering. That is why Old Believers who follow the old rules forbid themselves to sit at the same table as non-Orthodox, but make them sit at another place and use special dishes they do not use, if non-Orthodox visit their home.

Or, what if whilst visiting a heterodox Christian friend's home for a meal they ask you to pray for the food, what then?