A Lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose

[joasia]

There was a glitch in the system.

Inco,

There is no Orthodox tradition of literal toll houses. Think about it. If the toll houses as illustrated in Father Seraphim's book was really true, then it would be a doctrine of the Church.

The teachings of the holy fathers is the fact of the situation. You look for doctrine? Where is the doctrine in how to cross ourselves? But, yet, it is still understood. It is practiced and it is passed on to the next generation.

There is no such a thing as essential and non-essential doctrines in Orthodoxy, like there is in protestantism. ALL is essential in Orthodoxy. But the fact of the matter is that there is no toll houses in Scripture, the canons, creeds or any of the ecumenical or local councils. If it was true, it would have to be a doctrine or dogma. If the Church believed it as doctrine (not theological opinion), don't you think the apostles and fathers would have placed it in the Scriptures, creeds, canons and councils?

Father Seraphim makes it look like the saints believed in the toll houses.

Have you even read his book? He states: Thus, of course, there are no visible “houses” or “booths” in the air where “taxes” are collected and where there is mention of “scrolls” or writing implements whereby sins are recorded, or “scales” by which virtues are weighed, or “gold” by which “debts” are paid - in all such cases we may properly understand these images to be figurative or interpritive devices used to express the spiritual reality which the soul faces at that time. Whether the soul actually sees these images at the time, due to it’s lifelong habit of seeing spiritual reality only through bodily forms, or later can remember the experience only by use of such images, or simply finds it impossible to express what it has experienced in any other way...this is all a very secondary question which does not seem to have been important to the Holy Fathers and writers of saints’ lives who have recorded such experiences. What is certain is that there is a testing by demons, who appear in a frightful but human form, accuse the newly-departed of sins and literally try to seize the suble body of the soul, which is grasped firmly by angels; and all this occurs in the air above us and can be seen by those whose eyes are open to spiritual reality.

Many holy fathers talked about the dreaded confrontation with the demons. St Ephraim the Syrian wrote: When the fearful hosts come, when the divine taker-away(God’s angels) command the soul to be translated from the body, when they draw us away by force and lead us away to the unavoidable judgment place - then, seeing them, the poor man...comes all into a shaking as if from an earthquake, is all in trembling. The divine takers-away, taking the soul, ascend in the air where stand the chiefs, the authorities and the world-rulers of the opposing powers. These are our accusers, the fearful publicans, registrars, tax-collectors; they meet it on the way, register, examine, and count out the sins and debts of this man - the sins of youth and old age, voluntary and involuntary, committed in deed, word and thought. Great is the fear here, great the trembling of the poor soul, indescirbable the want which it suffers then from the incalculable multitides of its enemies surrrounding it there in myriads, slandering it so as not to allow it to ascend to heaven, to dwell in the light of the living, to enter the land of life. But, the holy angels, taking the soul, lead it away.

How can you ignore the explanations of the holy fathers?

[Incognito1583]

I think I should clarify that I didn’t mean the demons will judge us. I was referring to the fact that we face judgement, by Christ, of course. The demons are there to accuse and try to take the souls, but it many stories, they cannot do anything because they are held back by God’s order.

That last stament is not supported by the Scriptures or the holy fathers. David himself stated:

"Yea, though I walk through the dark valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil..." [Psalm 23].

There is nothing to fear if we die in a state of grace. No demons will have access to us. And I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about those who die in a state of grace.

The term toll-house is a human description of the circumstance we will face when we die. The old Greek description could well be, stations. But, there is a definite understanding in Orthodox teachings that the soul does face these terrifying creatures.

The "Orthodox teachings" you refer to come from Father Seraphim's book. The Orthodox Church does not teach this. As I said before, if toll houses were true, they would be dogma. They are not dogma because they are not an Orthodox teaching.

Has it ever occurred to you that Gnostics may be using the Orthodox teachings and therefore it’s label is reversed?

There is no evidence for that. Gnosticism pre-dates Christianity and became "Christianitzed" in the early centuries.

They are taking the credit for an Orthodox view and convincing people that the Orthodox view is really Gnostic.

I supposed you can allege anything you want, but you must provide evidence.

Yes. I agree. But, for the Theotokos and saints, the judgement was instant and they were taken straight to God’s Kingdom, whereas, a sinner, like me will have to face the harrowing 40 days and be forced to visit Hell.

How can you visit hell, when hell does not yet exist? Like Father Seraphim, you use hell and hades interchangably. You mean visit hades? This was one of his errors. There is nothing in the Sciptures or the Fathers of a 40 day period after death where we are poked with pitch forks by devils as we ascend to heaven. This claim has no basis in Scripture or the Fathers.

I never said that they are visible. I should have re-worded it. When I said, in the flesh, I meant that we being in the flesh, are attacked by these demons, spiritually. Of course, we don’t see them, although many people have experienced much more physical attacks, and I don’t mean only saints. But, you do know that they are constantly attacking us, in a way pushing certain buttons to influence us to fall into sin. They suggest it, very strongly, but we accept it, on many occasions. We don’t see them here, but once we are seperated from our bodies, the other world is opened to us and then we can see them.

That last sentence is your presupposition and is not the Orthodox teaching.

Those who are in the "state of Grace", when living in the flesh, were constantly bombarded by the demons' attacks. Do you think they will stop trying even after death?

Devils do not attack and poke us with pitch forks and drag us down to hades even now. We can't even see them. But the toll house imagery depicts them as having power over us, tormenting us and dragging us to hades. The battle is over when we die. Satan's power stops at death. His power does not extend beyond the grave. The idea that he has power in the next world over the elect, has no basis or support in Scripture or the Fathers.

Of course, they will be useless, but it doesn’t stop them from trying, is all I’m saying. This is in response to your notion that everything is bliss and peace. The only ones who are in the state of deification are the saints. We who fall way short of their state will have to face the attacks, although Christ is in control. But, even then, the description is limited to the human understanding of an existence that is beyond our ability to comprehend. So don’t take the toll-houses as a specific description of an event, but as a human feeble attempt to describe something that is beyond human words. But, the meaning of the condition is that the demons will be there trying to claim the soul.

That's the toll house CLAIM, but again it has no basis or support from the Orthodox Church. Even the Latins, who had the same pre-schism saints and Fathers, never conceived of a toll house theory.

They are not at their mercy...we are. Who are we to say that we deserve God’s Kingdom when we review our lives?

We don't. I'm talking about those who die in a state of grace.

Can you say that you have a clear path to God’s Kingdom? If we are not saints, then we must consider that we may not be accepted by God.

That conceptualization of God is reminiscent of the Latin belief of a malicious God. You don't have to be a saint to be saved.

We cannot have that kind of confidence. That comes from pride.

That wasn't the point. The point is that anyone who dies in a state of grace, will not be surrendered over to the powers of the devil at death.

That’s a Protestant mentality. The saints didn’t even feel they were absolved of their sins. The point I’m trying to make is that I believe we should hope in God that He will forgive us although we are so far away from Him.

That's part of this theory. It is reminiscent of Catholic theology of a distant God. No, you are not so far away from Him. He is closer than your own breath. You don't have to be perfect to be saved. No one is perfect. God is love.

That is the hope that is in our Orthodox prayers. Read the Canon to Jesus Christ. The point is that you believe that you are in a state of Grace and that you will not face any unpleasant and discomforting situation when you die.

I never said I was in a state of grace. I said that for those who die in a state of grace, the battle with evil ends at death. If one dies outside of grace, they are damned.

Well, hold onto your hat because it could be a bumpy ride. Don’t delude yourself that you have already been saved because you have Grace. Like I said, that’s a Protestant view.

I never made the claim I was saved.

"There is NO condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus...." [Rom.8:1].

This is referring to the fact that the Law of the Spirit has over-ruled the Law of the Letter.

Yes, and the law of the spirit has liberated mankind from the power of the devil. Devils cannot condemn God's children.

Apostle Paul was talking to the converted Jews in Rome.

Who were Christians as we are.

He was emphasizing that through Jesus Christ, those who left the Judaic faith should have confidence in their faith in Christ because the truth of the spiritual laws were revealed to them. This has nothing to do with the accusations of the demons.

It has everything to do with the fact that "there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." Those who are in Christ Jesus, will never be condemned by devils now or ever.

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." [2Cor.5:8]. We are not present with devils.

Apostle Paul was referring to abadoning the influences of this world and only living for Christ. It’s a very common feeling of all the saints.

No, the context is about death. In verse 6 he states very plainly:

"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord."

In verse 10 he explains the coming judgement where we appear before Him. This whole context is about death and judgement.

He's saying if you are not in the body (alive), you are with the Lord (dead). He never mentioned any devils poking us with pitch forks as we ascend to heaven.

Why do you keep rejecting the fact that the demons are always around us?

I don't. I deal with them everyday. My argument is that they lose their grip over us when we die.

Since Lazar and Axkoul are your only sources, I will have to ask you if you can provide anything more substantial. And don’t quote Nathaniel. He’s in his own world. And that’s the most polite way to say it.

If you had read the material, you wouldn't be asking me for something more substantial. Their books are substantial. But I have asked others about it. I asked one of the Orthodox scholars at Energetic Procession, and a theology teacher at Saint Vladimirs Seminary. They both reject the toll houses as explained in Father Seraphim's book. I also asked another bishop (name witheld) and he doubted the toll houses. I witheld his name because I don't want him to be attacked.

As we ascend to heaven, the only thing attacking us might be our own inner demons, the passions. But the higher we ascend, the more spiritual and refined we become. We won't be assaulted by devils poking us with picth forks and dragging us to hell at station 20 or whatever. This is a lie from the devil, and one last attempt to keep people under his fear and control

[Incognito1583]

The teachings of the holy fathers is the fact of the situation.

No, they didn't teach it. You have been duped by Father Seraphim's book that they taught it. You need to read the books I recommend which explain the accounts Father Seraphim tried to use. And the Father's also taught the Holy Trinity. That was put into the creeds and councils. The toll houses was never afforded such status. I wonder why.

You look for doctrine? Where is the doctrine in how to cross ourselves?

Yes I do look for doctrine. Heaven, hell, angels, demons, God, the Trinity, the Virgin birth, etc are all doctrines. The toll house theory never won such status. Why? Because IT IS NOT A TEACHING OF THE ORTHODOX CHURCH. Got it?

But, yet, it is still understood. It is practiced and it is passed on to the next generation.

The crossing of oneself is not a doctrine of the faith. Christ's death on the cross is.

Have you even read his book? He states: Thus, of course, there are no visible “houses” or “booths” in the air where “taxes” are collected and where there is mention of “scrolls” or writing implements whereby sins are recorded, or “scales” by which virtues are weighed, or “gold” by which “debts” are paid - in all such cases we may properly understand these images to be figurative or interpritive devices used to express the spiritual reality which the soul faces at that time. Whether the soul actually sees these images at the time, due to it’s lifelong habit of seeing spiritual reality only through bodily forms, or later can remember the experience only by use of such images, or simply finds it impossible to express what it has experienced in any other way...this is all a very secondary question which does not seem to have been important to the Holy Fathers and writers of saints’ lives who have recorded such experiences. What is certain is that there is a testing by demons, who appear in a frightful but human form, accuse the newly-departed of sins and literally try to seize the suble body of the soul, which is grasped firmly by angels; and all this occurs in the air above us and can be seen by those whose eyes are open to spiritual reality.

He's talking out both sides of his mouth.

Many holy fathers talked about the dreaded confrontation with the demons. St Ephraim the Syrian wrote: When the fearful hosts come, when the divine taker-away(God’s angels) command the soul to be translated from the body, when they draw us away by force and lead us away to the unavoidable judgment place - then, seeing them, the poor man...comes all into a shaking as if from an earthquake, is all in trembling. The divine takers-away, taking the soul, ascend in the air where stand the chiefs, the authorities and the world-rulers of the opposing powers. These are our accusers, the fearful publicans, registrars, tax-collectors; they meet it on the way, register, examine, and count out the sins and debts of this man - the sins of youth and old age, voluntary and involuntary, committed in deed, word and thought. Great is the fear here, great the trembling of the poor soul, indescirbable the want which it suffers then from the incalculable multitides of its enemies surrrounding it there in myriads, slandering it so as not to allow it to ascend to heaven, to dwell in the light of the living, to enter the land of life. But, the holy angels, taking the soul, lead it away.

I don't know what translation or source Father Seraphim used in that quote, but I doubt its authenticity. The books I recommend deal with these kind of quotes. From what I remember, Rose didn't finish citations, used bad translations and sources influenced by Gnosticism.

[Incognito1583]

I think I should clarify that I didn’t mean the demons will judge us. I was referring to the fact that we face judgement, by Christ, of course. The demons are there to accuse and try to take the souls, but it many stories, they cannot do anything because they are held back by God’s order.

That last stament is not supported by the Scriptures or the holy fathers. David himself stated:

"Yea, though I walk through the dark valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil..." [Psalm 23].

There is nothing to fear if we die in a state of grace. No demons will have access to us. And I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about those who die in a state of grace.

The term toll-house is a human description of the circumstance we will face when we die. The old Greek description could well be, stations. But, there is a definite understanding in Orthodox teachings that the soul does face these terrifying creatures.

The "Orthodox teachings" you refer to come from Father Seraphim's book. The Orthodox Church does not teach this. As I said before, if toll houses were true, they would be dogma. They are not dogma because they are not an Orthodox teaching.

Has it ever occurred to you that Gnostics may be using the Orthodox teachings and therefore it’s label is reversed?

There is no evidence for that. Gnosticism pre-dates Christianity and became "Christianitzed" in the early centuries.

They are taking the credit for an Orthodox view and convincing people that the Orthodox view is really Gnostic.

I supposed you can allege anything you want, but you must provide evidence.

Yes. I agree. But, for the Theotokos and saints, the judgement was instant and they were taken straight to God’s Kingdom, whereas, a sinner, like me will have to face the harrowing 40 days and be forced to visit Hell.

How can you visit hell, when hell does not yet exist? Like Father Seraphim, you use hell and hades interchangably. You mean visit hades? This was one of his errors. There is nothing in the Sciptures or the Fathers of a 40 day period after death where we are poked with pitch forks by devils as we ascend to heaven. This claim has no basis in Scripture or the Fathers.

I never said that they are visible. I should have re-worded it. When I said, in the flesh, I meant that we being in the flesh, are attacked by these demons, spiritually. Of course, we don’t see them, although many people have experienced much more physical attacks, and I don’t mean only saints. But, you do know that they are constantly attacking us, in a way pushing certain buttons to influence us to fall into sin. They suggest it, very strongly, but we accept it, on many occasions. We don’t see them here, but once we are seperated from our bodies, the other world is opened to us and then we can see them.

That last sentence is your presupposition and is not the Orthodox teaching.

Those who are in the "state of Grace", when living in the flesh, were constantly bombarded by the demons' attacks. Do you think they will stop trying even after death?

Devils do not attack and poke us with pitch forks and drag us down to hades even now. We can't even see them. But the toll house imagery depicts them as having power over us, tormenting us and dragging us to hades. The battle is over when we die. Satan's power stops at death. His power does not extend beyond the grave. The idea that he has power in the next world over the elect, has no basis or support in Scripture or the Fathers.

Of course, they will be useless, but it doesn’t stop them from trying, is all I’m saying. This is in response to your notion that everything is bliss and peace. The only ones who are in the state of deification are the saints. We who fall way short of their state will have to face the attacks, although Christ is in control. But, even then, the description is limited to the human understanding of an existence that is beyond our ability to comprehend. So don’t take the toll-houses as a specific description of an event, but as a human feeble attempt to describe something that is beyond human words. But, the meaning of the condition is that the demons will be there trying to claim the soul.

That's the toll house CLAIM, but again it has no basis or support from the Orthodox Church. Even the Latins, who had the same pre-schism saints and Fathers, never conceived of a toll house theory.

They are not at their mercy...we are. Who are we to say that we deserve God’s Kingdom when we review our lives?

We don't. I'm talking about those who die in a state of grace.

Can you say that you have a clear path to God’s Kingdom? If we are not saints, then we must consider that we may not be accepted by God.

That conceptualization of God is reminiscent of the Latin belief of a malicious God. You don't have to be a saint to be saved.

We cannot have that kind of confidence. That comes from pride.

That wasn't the point. The point is that anyone who dies in a state of grace, will not be surrendered over to the powers of the devil at death.

That’s a Protestant mentality. The saints didn’t even feel they were absolved of their sins. The point I’m trying to make is that I believe we should hope in God that He will forgive us although we are so far away from Him.

That's part of this theory. It is reminiscent of Catholic theology of a distant God. No, you are not so far away from Him. He is closer than your own breath. You don't have to be perfect to be saved. No one is perfect. God is love.

That is the hope that is in our Orthodox prayers. Read the Canon to Jesus Christ. The point is that you believe that you are in a state of Grace and that you will not face any unpleasant and discomforting situation when you die.

I never said I was in a state of grace. I said that for those who die in a state of grace, the battle with evil ends at death. If one dies outside of grace, they are damned.

Well, hold onto your hat because it could be a bumpy ride. Don’t delude yourself that you have already been saved because you have Grace. Like I said, that’s a Protestant view.

I never made the claim I was saved.

"There is NO condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus...." [Rom.8:1].

This is referring to the fact that the Law of the Spirit has over-ruled the Law of the Letter.

Yes, and the law of the spirit has liberated mankind from the power of the devil. Devils cannot condemn God's children.

Apostle Paul was talking to the converted Jews in Rome.

Who were Christians as we are.

He was emphasizing that through Jesus Christ, those who left the Judaic faith should have confidence in their faith in Christ because the truth of the spiritual laws were revealed to them. This has nothing to do with the accusations of the demons.

It has everything to do with the fact that "there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." Those who are in Christ Jesus, will never be condemned by devils now or ever.

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." [2Cor.5:8]. We are not present with devils.

Apostle Paul was referring to abadoning the influences of this world and only living for Christ. It’s a very common feeling of all the saints.

No, the context is about death. In verse 6 he states very plainly:

"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord."

In verse 10 he explains the coming judgement where we appear before Him. This whole context is about death and judgement.

He's saying if you are not in the body (alive), you are with the Lord (dead). He never mentioned any devils poking us with pitch forks as we ascend to heaven.

Why do you keep rejecting the fact that the demons are always around us?

I don't. I deal with them everyday. My argument is that they lose their grip over us when we die.

Since Lazar and Axkoul are your only sources, I will have to ask you if you can provide anything more substantial. And don’t quote Nathaniel. He’s in his own world. And that’s the most polite way to say it.

If you had read the material, you wouldn't be asking me for something more substantial. Their books are substantial. But I have asked others about it. I asked one of the Orthodox scholars at Energetic Procession, and a theology teacher at Saint Vladimirs Seminary. They both reject the toll houses as explained in Father Seraphim's book. I also asked another bishop (name witheld) and he doubted the toll houses. I witheld his name because I don't want him to be attacked.

As we ascend to heaven, the only thing attacking us might be our own inner demons, the passions. But the higher we ascend, the more spiritual and refined we become. We won't be assaulted by devils poking us with pitch forks and dragging us to hell at station 20 or whatever. This is a lie from the devil, and one last attempt to keep people under his fear and control[/quote]

[Incognito1583]

I think some might try to use Ephesians 6 where Paul talks about how we wrestle with devils, etc. to support toll houses. But he's talking about THIS life, not the next; The battle we have with devils here and now. And he never speaks of toll houses either in this life or the next.

My suggestion is read the books I have recommended. Compare the data and draw your own conclusions.

I was being sarcastic about the pitch forks. I don't think I've read about them poking people. They are more ruthless. They drag people down to hell. This might happen with the damned, but not the elect of God.

[Incognito1583]

And I don't believe it is my job to find scholars or theologians who deny the toll houses. I think the toll housers are obligated to find people who do believe it. I don't know any one who is, claims ,or pretends to be a scholar other than a few psychopaths like those found in Etna (Saint Gregory Palamas Monastery) who even believe in the toll house theory. Some older Russians might, but they didn't know anything about the Gnostic influence.

People like those found in Etna, need to believe God is sadistic and malicious because it goes with their personalities.

I'm not saying all toll house people are malicious or sadistic. Some are just deceived or duped.

[Incognito1583]

And just because Nathaniel is allegedly mentally ill, does not mean everything he says is wrong. This is so typical of the Orthodox mentality and stereotypes where they consider everyone subhuman unless they are Greek, Russian, formally educated or wealthy. Everyone else is expendable according to them.