Inco,
I've heard it claimed elswhere that those who deny the toll houses, leave no room for the particular judgement. This is false. You seem to be implying the same thing. We are judged by GOD, not demons. You are reading-into the prayers of the Church, toll houses. No, we are all indeed judged. But judged by whom? God, or devils? The answer is God.
No one ever denied we are judged. My point is that we are judged by Christ before the bema seat ( 2Cor.5:10). We are not judged by devils. Being judged by devils is not a biblical teaching. Christ is the judge. Why would God allow devils to judge people, when all devils do is lie?
I think I should clarify that I didn’t mean the demons will judge us. I was referring to the fact that we face judgement, by Christ, of course. The demons are there to accuse and try to take the souls, but it many stories, they cannot do anything because they are held back by God’s order. I guess I blended the two thoughts together and it came out the way it did. The term toll-house is a human description of the circumstance we will face when we die. The old Greek description could well be, stations. But, there is a definite understanding in Orthodox teachings that the soul does face these terrifying creatures.
But there is evidence Gnosticism is at the heart of the toll house myth.
Has it ever occurred to you that Gnostics may be using the Orthodox teachings and therefore it’s label is reversed? They are taking the credit for an Orthodox view and convincing people that the Orthodox view is really Gnostic. What other purpose would they have except to confuse the world and Orthodox faithful in believing that there’s something wrong with the Orthodox teachings? The enemies of Christ have done that with all the teachings. Example, Noah’s Ark. The world of non-Orthodox and many Orthodox are taught that other civilizations have the same story(which they do), so that must mean that it was a metaphor of some kind and not a real person. The fact is Noah was one real person and he came from the true line of God’s chosen people. What the other civilizations describe is about Noah, but they have fallen away from the true worship of the Holy Trinty and so believe that their story is about somebody from the culture they live in. I see the papists doing that by identifying themselves as the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church. They use the Greek term, Katholoki(universal) to identify themselves as the true Church and people get confused because the papists call themselves Catholic and that is mentioned in the Creed. So people think that the Creed is referring to the Pope.
All must stand before the judgement seat of Christ [2Cor.5:10]. Saints are not exempt.
Yes. I agree. But, for the Theotokos and saints, the judgement was instant and they were taken straight to God’s Kingdom, whereas, a sinner, like me will have to face the harrowing 40 days and be forced to visit Hell. But, even in her humbleness, the Theotokos asked Christ to protect her from the “snares of the dark power of satan"(Menology of St. Dimitri of Rostov).
No, you think about what you are saying. We do not see demons in the present life. They do not physically assault and accuse us like they do in the toll house imagery. They do not have the power to deliver our souls to hell now; nor will they in the afterlife.
I never said that they are visible. I should have re-worded it. When I said, in the flesh, I meant that we being in the flesh, are attacked by these demons, spiritually. Of course, we don’t see them, although many people have experienced much more physical attacks, and I don’t mean only saints. But, you do know that they are constantly attacking us, in a way pushing certain buttons to influence us to fall into sin. They suggest it, very strongly, but we accept it, on many occasions. We don’t see them here, but once we are seperated from our bodies, the other world is opened to us and then we can see them. They don’t have power over us unless our souls are inclined to them. But, above all, Christ decides whether He will let them have our souls.
joasia wrote:
Those who are in the "state of Grace", when living in the flesh, were constantly bombarded by the demons' attacks. Do you think they will stop trying even after death?
Of course I do. That's the biblical and Orthodox teaching. Since no one is attacked by demons now in the flesh (with the exception of a few saints)
If you mean, physically, then I think I’ve addressed that issue above
how much weaker will they be when we enter the afterlife in a state of deification and grace?
Of course, they will be useless, but it doesn’t stop them from trying, is all I’m saying. This is in response to your notion that everything is bliss and peace. The only ones who are in the state of deification are the saints. We who fall way short of their state will have to face the attacks, although Christ is in control. But, even then, the description is limited to the human understanding of an existence that is beyond our ability to comprehend. So don’t take the toll-houses as a specific description of an event, but as a human feeble attempt to describe something that is beyond human words. But, the meaning of the condition is that the demons will be there trying to claim the soul.
The toll house myth mitigates the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for our sins, all the confessions, absolutions and communions we make and have in our life, etc. What good is the Theotokos, saints and angels, if at death we are left to the mercy of devils?
They are not at their mercy...we are. Who are we to say that we deserve God’s Kingdom when we review our lives? Can you say that you have a clear path to God’s Kingdom? If we are not saints, then we must consider that we may not be accepted by God. We cannot have that kind of confidence. That comes from pride. That’s a Protestant mentality. The saints didn’t even feel they were absolved of their sins. The point I’m trying to make is that I believe we should hope in God that He will forgive us although we are so far away from Him. That is the hope that is in our Orthodox prayers. Read the Canon to Jesus Christ. The point is that you believe that you are in a state of Grace and that you will not face any unpleasant and discomforting situation when you die. Well, hold onto your hat because it could be a bumpy ride. Don’t delude yourself that you have already been saved because you have Grace. Like I said, that’s a Protestant view.
"There is NO condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus...." [Rom.8:1].
This is referring to the fact that the Law of the Spirit has over-ruled the Law of the Letter. Apostle Paul was talking to the converted Jews in Rome. He was emphasizing that through Jesus Christ, those who left the Judaic faith should have confidence in their faith in Christ because the truth of the spiritual laws were revealed to them. This has nothing to do with the accusations of the demons.
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." [2Cor.5:8]. We are not present with devils.
Apostle Paul was referring to abadoning the influences of this world and only living for Christ. It’s a very common feeling of all the saints. Why do you keep rejecting the fact that the demons are always around us?
Father Seraphim's view contradict the teachings of the great theologians of the Church, and the Scriptures. Have you even read the counter arguments? Read these books:
Since Lazar and Axkoul are your only sources, I will have to ask you if you can provide anything more substantial. And don’t quote Nathaniel. He’s in his own world. And that’s the most polite way to say it.
I’d like to see you point out the parts that Fr. Seraphim talks about that are refuted. You only make general comments. But, provide quotes of the holy fathers.
