A Question that caused a Crisis.

[ANGELA]

She could be Catholic? They babtize

[Helen]

Evfimy we do not know how God will judge the non-Orthodox. We only know how the Orthodox will be judged. In fact we might be very surprised in the dread judgment about who gets into heaven and who doesn't.

The little girl probably wasn't old enough to know right from wrong. She died a horrific death. I've heard it said that when someone is murdered it is considered as a martyrdom. Do you really think God is going to say: Okay you Orthodox, because you're Orthodox you have a passport to heaven. And you little girl, go to hell because you don't have a passport. Does that sound like God to you?

What about all the aborted babies who also never had the chance to get baptized? Are they also going to go to hell?

[Jean-Serge]

If children already have a place in heaven, then there is no need to baptize them.

Typically augustinian mistake.

[ANGELA]

Thankyou Helen for that reply. Exactly what I was trying to say.

+Angela

[Cyprian]

"Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."

Perhaps one ought to learn the most basic tenets of the Christian Faith before assuming for himself the place of critiquing God's holy saints.

Young man, hast thou learned yet whether or not the witchcraft, sorcery, divination, astrology, palmistry, the various auguries, enchantments and magic spells performed by Mr. Harry Potter and his cohorts are acceptable for children to be fantasizing about?

Or are you still unsure?

Perhaps some of you ought to read a catechism of the Church before pontificating on how such and such a saint was wrong in one fashion or another.

For those of you who perhaps are too lazy to read the whole treatise, at least take the time to read the following excerpt:

ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM

CATECHETICAL LECTURES I-XII
WITH PROTOCATECHESIS

LECTURE IV

ON THE TEN POINTS OF DOCTRINE.

1. But shun thou every diabolical operation, and believe not the apostate Serpent, whose transformation from a good nature was of his own free choice: who can over-persuade the willing, but can compel no one. Also give heed neither to observations of the stars nor auguries, nor omens, nor to the fabulous divinations of the Greeks. Witchcraft, and enchantment, and the wicked practices of necromancy, admit not even to a hearing. From every kind of intemperance stand aloof, giving thyself neither to gluttony nor licentiousness, rising superior to all covetousness and usury. Neither venture thyself at heathen assemblies for public spectacles, nor ever use amulets in sicknesses; shun also all the vulgarity of tavern-haunting. Fall not away either into the sect of the Samaritans, or into Judaism: for Jesus Christ henceforth hath ransomed thee. Stand aloof from all observance of Sabbaths, and from calling any indifferent meats common or unclean. But especially abhor all the assemblies of wicked heretics; and in every way make thine own soul safe, by fastings, prayers, almsgivings, and reading the oracles of God; that having lived the rest of thy life in the flesh in soberness and godly doctrine, thou mayest enjoy the one salvation which flows from Baptism; and thus enrolled in the armies of heaven by God and the Father, mayest also be deemed worthy of the heavenly crowns, in Christ Jesus our Lord, to Whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

LECTURE XIX.

FIRST LECTURE ON THE MYSTERIES.

1. After this thou sayest. "and all thy service." Now the service of the devil is prayer in idol temples; things done in honour of lifeless idols; the lighting of lamps, or burning of incense by fountains or rivers, as some persons cheated by dreams or by evil spirits do [resort to this], thinking to find a cure even for their bodily ailments. Go not after such things. The watching of birds, divination, omens, or amulets, or charms written on leaves, sorceries, or other evil arts, and all such things, are services of the devil; therefore shun them. For if after renouncing Satan and associating thyself with Christ, thou fall under their influence, thou shall find the tyrant more bitter; perchance, because he treated thee of old as his own, and relieved thee from his hard bondage, but has now been greatly exasperated by thee; so thou wilt be bereaved of Christ, and have experience of the other. Hast thou not heard the old history which tells us of Lot and his daughters? Was not he himself saved with his daughters, when he had gained the mountain, while his wife became a pillar of salt, set up as a monument for ever, in remembrance of her depraved will and her turning back. Take heed therefore to thyself, and turn not again to what is behind, having put thine hand to the plough, and then turning back to the salt savour of this life's doings; but escape to the mountain, to Jesus Christ. that stone hewn without hands, which has filled the world.

[joasia]

Cyprian,

Do you have anything about a person who becomes a catechumen but doesn't pursue Holy Baptism? What happens to that soul when he dies?

[Ekaterina]

I was not going to respond to this conversation .....that is until Joasia asked Cyprian her question....

Joasia:
Cyprian for all his pontificating is not a baptised Orthodox person. He has not to my knowledge commited himself and his being to any Orthodox Church. According to him there are none worthy to be considered Orthodox. While knowledgeable in many Orthodox writings he is absolutely the last person to ask about matters of faith.

Angela:
Evfimy is again very "knowledge" but I question the validity of his pontificating even more that Cyprian's. He is even more the last place to turn for matters that affect your spirituality. You would be better off asking Fr Mark (one of the moderators) or your own Spiritual father. If you do not have a spiritual father, I'm sure we could suggest someone based on where you live.

Lenexa:
My advise to you is get yourself to church and the confessional and get help to heal your soul. You will not accomplish that here.

Katya