Father Seraphim Rose on "Traditionalist" groups

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Post by GOCPriestMark »

Pensees wrote:

Father Seraphim is a modern father of the Church, and his word is more trustworthy than the members of an internet forum.

Here is the last part of the introduction to his "Russia's Catacomb Saints": "To the future historian of the Russian Church there will indeed be no doubt (in fact, the church history of Lev Regelson already proves it) that the Josephites were correct and the Sergianists were fatally wrong. But the significance of the Catacomb Church does not lie in its 'correctness', it lies in its preservation of the true spirit of Orthodoxy, the spirit of freedom in Christ. Sergianism was not merely 'wrong' in its choice of church policy, it was something far worse: it was a betrayal of Christ based on agreement with the spirit of this world. It is the inevitable result when church policy is guided by earthly logic and not by the mind of Christ."

In this Introduction he equates Sergianism with the present day MP.

Therefore, it appears to me that just from this one quote, Fr. Seraphim's view of the MP is quite different from yours.

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Priest Mark Smith
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Post by GOCTheophan »

Anastasios wrote:

He said that Jordanville was the last Orthodox seminary in the world and I doubt he would have had much truck with the jesuitical smuggness of new ROCOR or the modernists in the GOC in the USA who carry links to the mad ramblings of the heretic Romanides.

What exactly is your beef with Romanides? That he wrote an article calling Old Calendarists Crypto-Augustinian? Or you don't agree with some of his historical theories? The link to Romanides is in a list of links to various links--some religious and dogmatic, while others being secular and historical, dealing with aspects of history.

To call us in America modernists is plain evil. . Geronda and Bishop Christodoulos are tireless proponents of Orthodox tradition who travel around the vast continents of N and S America working non-stop to spread True Orthodoxy and to call them modernists to me is just sick and twisted. You seem obsessed with rather trivial things and not the main issues.

Anastasios

Prof Romanides propagates false teaching on Ancestral sin and our Redemption in Jesus Christ aswell as on Heaven and Hell besides his false ecumenism as regards the Monophysites. He is a dangerous heretic- maybe the most dangerous one of our time. His attitude towards St Augustine of Hippo is blasemphous. Those are "main issues". His historical theories are over stated and border on phlyetism. To carry a link to such dangerous writings without warning is plain evil.

I didnt call everyone in the USA modernists- just those who would carry a link to such an individual's writing without grave warnings.

What made Hieromonk Seraphim great was that he saw the importance of the Orthodox dogmas of creation, original sin, redemption and the particular judgement- that they were not side issues to be pushed aside by arguements over false ecumenism, sergianism and whether the local Church infected with them had fallen from Grace or not. The fact is that in many ways many people in the MP believe in a lot more of an Orthodox fashion than a lot of people in the various True Orthodox jurisdictions.

Geronda means elder doesnt it? Well St Ignati in the 19 th century said that there were no real elders left in his time.

Theophan.

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Post by GOCTheophan »

Pensees wrote:
GOCTheophan wrote:

Also Im not sure if he counts as a Church Father and he obviously wasnt God and so should not be followed blindly.

Father Seraphim is a modern father of the Church, and his word is more trustworthy than the members of an internet forum.

Well I agree with you in that at least- that he is far more trustworthy than members of an internet forum. Still he was infected by a general ROCOR fuzziness- the proof of that was that he didnt come out straight and call Met Krapovitsky a heretic even though his writings fell under several Concilar anathemas.

Theophan.

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Post by Anastasios »

Prof Romanides propagates false teaching on Ancestral sin and our Redemption in Jesus Christ aswell as on Heaven and Hell besides his false ecumenism as regards the Monophysites.

How is his teaching on Ancestral Sin heretical? Most people I have talked to from a wide spectrum find his work on Ancestral sin to be monumental. You'll need to provide more than your opinion to back this statement up.

I have never heard a critique about him about his teaching on heaven and hell.

He later on in life realized his ecumenism with Non Chalcedonians was misguided and idealistic.

He is a dangerous heretic- maybe the most dangerous one of our time. His attitude towards St Augustine of Hippo is blasemphous.

He is on the mark with St Augustine's errors, although his refusal to honor St Augustine as a saint goes too far in my opinion. But Fr Seraphim (Rose) may have gone to the other extreme and let St Augustine off the hook too much in my opinion.

Those are "main issues". His historical theories are over stated and border on phlyetism. To carry a link to such dangerous writings without warning is plain evil.

His historical theories may be overstated but they are basically true and have helped many Orthodox form a more solid Orthodox mind, helping them to get out of a western mindset. His writings against Fr John Meyendorff on St Gregory Palamas are especially good.

I didnt call everyone in the USA modernists- just those who would carry a link to such an individual's writing without grave warnings.

It's interesting that out of the long list of links you focused on his writings. I hardly think Romanides is the dangerous heretic you make him out to be. "The Most dangerous heretic of the 20th century" is simply absurd.

What made Hieromonk Seraphim great was that he saw the importance of the Orthodox dogmas of creation, original sin, redemption and the particular judgement- that they were not side issues to be pushed aside by arguements over false ecumenism, sergianism and whether the local Church infected with them had fallen from Grace or not.

I find that Fr Seraphim was holy but focused too much on issues that only affected the Russian Church--notice we Greeks did not have these controversies over such minor issues as "the Dogma of Redemption" spill over into our Church. If the "Dogma of Redemption" were really such a big issue, it would have made it into other local churches and be something we'd all have heard about. but we haven't, and your focusing on it is well, a bit overdone in my opinion. Also, Fr Seraphim tended to overdogmatize toll houses and use spiritual writings as more dogmatic writings (like sermons on where the soul is on various days after its separation from the body).

Ecumenism is a much bigger issue than "the Dogma of Redemption."

The fact is that in many ways many people in the MP believe in a lot more of an Orthodox fashion than a lot of people in the various True Orthodox jurisdictions.

Just because you fancy Russian post 19th century theories of various things does not mean they are the Orthodox standard.

Geronda means elder doesnt it? Well St Ignati in the 19 th century said that there were no real elders left in his time.

So what if he thought that? He was wrong. You obviously are not familiar with the Greek church that you belong to.

Anastasios

Last edited by Anastasios on Sat 25 November 2006 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Anastasios »

GOCTheophan wrote:
Pensees wrote:
GOCTheophan wrote:

Also Im not sure if he counts as a Church Father and he obviously wasnt God and so should not be followed blindly.

Father Seraphim is a modern father of the Church, and his word is more trustworthy than the members of an internet forum.

Well I agree with you in that at least- that he is far more trustworthy than members of an internet forum. Still he was infected by a general ROCOR fuzziness- the proof of that was that he didnt come out straight and call Met Krapovitsky a heretic even though his writings fell under several Concilar anathemas.

Theophan.

So let me get this straight--the other bishops did not separate from Met Anthony in his time--but THEOPHAN opines that he was a heretic. Ok...

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Post by Anastasios »

And by the way Theophan--you call the people who put those links up modernists, you call us all modernists. We are one here in America, despite your attempts to classify us into different camps. You should find yourself another "jurisdiction" if you think an entire diocese of your Church is made up of modernists.

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Post by Pensees »

GOCTheophan wrote:

Well I agree with you in that at least- that he is far more trustworthy than members of an internet forum. Still he was infected by a general ROCOR fuzziness- the proof of that was that he didnt come out straight and call Met Krapovitsky a heretic even though his writings fell under several Concilar anathemas.

Theophan.

Perhaps Blessed Seraphim understood his place as a monk, in not having the authority to judge a patriarch of the Church. You don't know the difficult choices that religious leaders sometimes make for the survival of the Church in the face of persecution.

Peace.

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