Genuine GOC of America: A Proclamation on Ecclesiology

[GOCTheophan]

Dear Theophan, thank you for clearing that up, that is usually what ones mean when they believe in the "light-switch theory". That may be where some of the confusion is coming from.

But Father the problemn is that even if I dont believe the Light of Sacramental Grace was switched off on the Serbian Patriarchate in 1924 or 1935, I do sincerely believe it went off for her when she commited fornication with the WCC in 1965. Something that I am presuming that Ioannis and Anastasios dont- though I could be wrong.

Theophan.

[GOCTheophan]

If I am reading this correctly, I think it is a good proclamation: it is clear, direct and uncompromising, yet does not view NC's are Graceless.

Gregory

This is really sickening.

ROCOR no matter what the actual play according to the canons of Holy Church and not the whims of their Hierarchs will inisist with even batting an eyelid that ROAC and ROCOR under Vitaly are without Sacramental Grace while when it comes to the New Calendarist schismatics even though they fall under the anathema of three Pan-Orthodox synods aswell as the anathema of 1935 ROCOR is shocked that any would consider them as Graceless even after they have added heresy to schism by signing up to the WCC.

Theophan.

[ioannis]

But Father the problemn is that even if I dont believe the Light of Sacramental Grace was switched off on the Serbian Patriarchate in 1924 or 1935, I do sincerely believe it went off for her when she commited fornication with the WCC in 1965. Something that I am presuming that Ioannis and Anastasios dont- though I could be wrong.

I think the lights went out with the Serbs (and basically everyone in communion with the well known condemned calendar) before 1965; that the lifting of the anathemas could even happen demonstrates that. If there are any exceptions to Gods law then that is His business - I am just to follow it and that is enough.

There seems to be way to much talk about Grace in the new-calendar churches and not enough concern with what we are doing with the Grace we have. If one found a huge pearl after completing a search of hundreds and thousands of empty oysters, I doubt one would talk much and be concerned about the empty ones. This is not directed at you Theophan, or anyone, just my general observation, which is more borne out of what I see on the internet (including myself), and not at all what I see at our actual churches.

[Orthodox New England]

This is really sickening.

ROCOR no matter what the actual play according to the canons of Holy Church and not the whims of their Hierarchs will inisist with even batting an eyelid that ROAC and ROCOR under Vitaly are without Sacramental Grace while when it comes to the New Calendarist schismatics even though they fall under the anathema of three Pan-Orthodox synods aswell as the anathema of 1935 ROCOR is shocked that any would consider them as Graceless even after they have added heresy to schism by signing up to the WCC.

Dear Theophan --

During the 50's and 60's, the ROCOR was in communion with parishes that used the New Calendar. So, I suppose the ROCOR was heretical since it was in communion with churches that used a heretical calendar.

I am not defending the New Calendar - far from it. But lets be honest about historical circumstances.

And ROCOR never engaged in talks with the heterodox? That makes one a schismatic?

Gregory

[ioannis]

Gregory,

If I may say a word. I don't think anyone has ever said the new calendar was "heretical", it is ecumenism (really syncretism) that is heretical. The new calendar by itself is schismatic.

In addition, from memory I believe what you are talking about is when the ROCOR received a large group of Romanians who were on the new calendar, and they were tolerated "as is" in order to get them into the church - with the expectation that they would be converted to the Church calendar.

Also, talking to heterodox is not heretical, nobody has every said that. It is when you sign your name to documents like Balamand, and generally confess that heretics are part of the Church that makes one non-Orthodox (it is after all, simply put, not the Orthodox faith).

[1937 Miraculous Cross]

Ioannis said:

There seems to be way to much talk about Grace in the new-calendar churches and not enough concern with what we are doing with the Grace we have. If one found a huge pearl after completing a search of hundreds and thousands of empty oysters, I doubt one would talk much and be concerned about the empty ones. This is not directed at you Theophan, or anyone, just my general observation, which is more borne out of what I see on the internet (including myself), and not at all what I see at our actual churches.

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, it seems that the sole reason
Orthodox discussion groups exist is to continually speculate and debate issues. I always admired the elderly people who faithfully come to church and know nothing about internet discussion groups. We should just live the Orthodox life and maintain silence. there is not one thing in any of these discussions that will change the bishops of the various synods, and they ultimately are the bottom line.

In Christ,
Nectarios

[Jean-Serge]

Ioannis said:

There seems to be way to much talk about Grace in the new-calendar churches and not enough concern with what we are doing with the Grace we have. If one found a huge pearl after completing a search of hundreds and thousands of empty oysters, I doubt one would talk much and be concerned about the empty ones. This is not directed at you Theophan, or anyone, just my general observation, which is more borne out of what I see on the internet (including myself), and not at all what I see at our actual churches.

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, it seems that the sole reason
Orthodox discussion groups exist is to continually speculate and debate issues. I always admired the elderly people who faithfully come to church and know nothing about internet discussion groups. We should just live the Orthodox life and maintain silence. there is not one thing in any of these discussions that will change the bishops of the various synods, and they ultimately are the bottom line.

In Christ,
Nectarios

THIS IS ENTIRELY TRUE... Why taking care about the Grace in heretical churches (when it left, which percentage is left and so on) if we do not commune there... It is a non-sense... And is is not spiritually edifying. Let the dead bury the dead...