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OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Mor Ephrem,

The issues surrounding Monophysitism are problematic on many levels. Since the Church's decisions carry force across time, the decisions of the Holy Fourth Ecumenical Synod are of such binding character that the Church can make no contrary decisions without refuting Herself and declaring that She was in fact not guided "in all truths" by the Holy Spirit.

In keeping with this, the phrase, "We now clearly understand...," has no place among Orthodox. The only dictum is Patristic and it says, "Following the Holy Fathers...".

We hear it said so often today, that one must not use so-called "polemical" theological nomenclature, that is, the language with which the Holy Fathers refute heretics, but a language that glosses over the divisions. This language inadvertantly misleads these same people who never understood the theological terms to begin with.

We do not believe that the present theological engagement of heretics outside the Church serves the Truth. First, because the language of the Church with regard to heretics has always been, since Apostolic times, refutative: "Better, indeed, a laudable war than a peace which severs one from God" (Saint Gregory the Theologian). This stand of the Church is actually charitable, for it both protects the Flock of Christ from heresy and provides heretics with motives and reasons for returning to the Church.

Also, the Ecclesiastical Body is comprised of Baptized Orthodox Christians, and of them alone. The preservation of the unity of the Ecclesiastical Body means the ensuring of their Orthodoxy and their perseverance to the end within the bosom of the Church; and this precisely constitutes the first and foremost important part of the the Church's pastoral concern. We do not include within the Ecclesiastical Body, however, heretics outside the Church. The struggle and the concern of the Church reach even to them, but the intent of that struggle is their return to the Church and not the devising by contrived means of peaceful co-existence with them under some nebulous ecuspeak.

Therefore, I say, we could discuss whether historical "non-chalcedoneans" were heretics and whether their modern ancestors still hold these views (which I know they do). But ultimatley it is enough to point out that "non-chalcedonians" were cut-off from the Church and are in need to be received, Baptised, Communed, Ordained and so forth. For there can be no Apostolic succession outside the Church, it is as simple as that. Obviously the "non-Chalcedonians" are not concerned by such things. I wonder now if someone is now going to start espousing the idea of "branches"??

I invite you to start a Monophysite thread so we could discuss your current beliefs.

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Re: Heterodox run that place Juli

Post by Savva24 »

Dear Mor Ephraim,

Thank you for your post. You raise some interesting points and certainly gave me something to chew on. Ultimately though I can't agree with your conclusions (as much as I would like to being a great admirer of the non-Chaldeconians). I can't see how a two groups of Christians can be separate for so many hundreds of years and still both be members of the same one True Church without buying into the Branch Theory.

While I agree that we can't count on miracles to completely settle matters of faith, as there can be false miracles and false prophets, I think that they can have something to say and that God uses them to express truth. After all the scriptures, both old and new, are full of events where God shows truth over falsehood through miracles. Also the miracle of the Holy Fire is probably the greatest miracle on earth in the holiest place on earth so I do think the events surrounding it are telling and relevant.

Hoping and praying for our eventual union,


In Christ,

Nicholas

P.S. Please don't think I was trying to bait or gloat over the schism in your Church by asking the question about the Indian Church. For an Eastern Orthodox to ridicule another church about internal separations and schisms would be a little like the pot calling the kettle...don't you think? I was simply curious and thank you for answering. I will contact you privatly if I have anymore questions. Hope that the schism resolves itself anyway.

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Sorry everyone, I did not realize I repeated some of Nicholas' points.

I find it hard to take this discussion seriously. If everything is so crystal clear, then why not simply post Pope Shenouda declaring an obviously diophysite statement?

===

Let all who speak so lightly about this understand that the unity of the Church is a mystical gift of the divine presence. It is not something which is decided upon at conferences, but something which either exists or does not exist. No decision of men can constrain God.

Of course, externally union can come about, and all can declare - Monophysites and new-calendarsits - that now they are at last one church. If they all agree upon one minimum of truth, and if a few other issues are glossed over there can be union. It will be a legally and externally "valid" system, but it will be a system that has no relation with the Church of Christ, even if all the external appearances make it resemble the Church. When the conditions of His presence do not exist in men, God does not come to men.

The Church of Christ was never a human system. The Church was born, it was not made. The discussions of men can make something to which they can give the name "Church". But this fabrication will be something with no life. The living Church will have no relation to it. She will exist somewhere far from all these fabrications, unaltered, full of truth and light, pure of every falsehood of compromise, with the Holy Spirit lighting her steps and enveloping her like the light of the sun, guiding her "to the fulness of truth".

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Mor Ephrem
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Post by Mor Ephrem »

I find it hard to take this discussion seriously.

As do I, which is why I try not to get into these discussions here if I can help it. I think it would probably be better to pray, myself especially. At any rate, you both (OOD and Nicholas) have given me much to think about, and I thank you for that, and for your prayers on my behalf.

I can't see how a two groups of Christians can be separate for so many hundreds of years and still both be members of the same one True Church without buying into the Branch Theory.

I don't understand it either, to be honest (because I don't believe in the branch theory...perhaps you would say I do, in which case a thread on what the branch theory actually is and means would probably be good), but I chalk it up to my poor understanding of these things, even after a bit of reading and praying. I am more prone to trusting my bishops.

Please don't think I was trying to bait or gloat over the schism in your Church by asking the question about the Indian Church. For an Eastern Orthodox to ridicule another church about internal separations and schisms would be a little like the pot calling the kettle...don't you think? I was simply curious and thank you for answering. I will contact you privatly if I have anymore questions. Hope that the schism resolves itself anyway.

It's not a problem. Our internal situation is a very distressing one, and I don't like debating it too much. I trust that won't be a problem on this site since most don't seem to be interested in affairs outside of the Russian Church. I never thought your question was "baiting". It would indeed be silly to "bait" me on our situation, when this site itself provides ample evidence of the same within the Eastern Orthodox Church. 8)

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

I appreciate you honesty.

I would also have to say that in these terrible times I also have a very hard time understanding many things - some of which I have settled on never knowing.

It is almost as if the Church is in such a terrible battle that in the "fog" of this war, one can hardly see who is friendly (orthodox) and who is not.

I would like to carry this on with this discussion, if for no other reason to examine the modern statements and beleifs of these "religious thinkers" who have gotten us thinking like we do. It may be refreshing for everyone to hear the others view.

God bless.

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尼古拉前执事
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Now?

Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

OrthodoxyOrDeath wrote:

I would like to carry this on with this discussion, if for no other reason to examine the modern statements and beleifs of these "religious thinkers" who have gotten us thinking like we do. It may be refreshing for everyone to hear the others view.

God bless.

Is it time to continue it yet?

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