Ethiopian/Eastern reunion essay idea.

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is this a good idea?

Poll ended at Thu 4 May 2006 6:37 pm

yes

5
50%

no

5
50%
 
Total votes: 10

EkhristosAnesti
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Post by EkhristosAnesti »

The only thing you illustrate is that you can't read an article in context.

As is self-evident, this article itself DEPRIVES THE QUOTED COMMENTS OF THEIR RELEVANT CONTEXT. I am IGNORING the POLEMICAL COMMENTATOR’s INTERPRETATION, and focusing on the QUOTED STATEMENTS IN AND OF THEMSELVES. This is the ONLY RELIABLE METHOD of interpreting the comments of one quoted in an article of another who has a clearly POLEMICAL AGENDA. Focusing strictly on those comments DIRECTLY QUOTED, one can clearly see that you are IMPUTING absurd and unwarranted implications that CLEARLY DO NOT EXIST, just to suit you anti-Orthodox agenda.

THE CHURCH IS CALLED TO WITNESS ORTHODOXY NOT COMPROMISE AND NOT "preach another christ."

THE FIGURES IN QUESTION NEVER CLAIMED TO PREACH ANOTHER CHRIST. Stop EISEGETING your nonsense INTO THE TEXT. READ WHAT HE SAYS:

Statement ONE: “According to biblical teachings, God’s gift of salvation in Christ is offered to the whole humanity,”

THIS IS TRUE, and BIBLICAL. Christ became man and died on behalf of THE WHOLE WORLD.

“Likewise, according to Christian pneumatology, the Holy Spirit’s work is cosmic; it reaches in mysterious ways to people of all faiths.”

Indeed the Holy Spirit reaches out to all, convicting them all, in His attempt to bring them to the Church that they may be saved. This is Orthodox.

In NEITHER OF THE ABOVE STATEMENTS DOES HE COMPROMISE HIS ORTHODOXY.

The vaoidly stupid is the position that outside the Body of Christ there is salvation.

First of all, if you want to be referred to strong proponents of this stupid position I refer you to YOUR OWN BISHOPS – BISHOP KALLISTOS WARE and BISHOP ALFEYEV. Unfortunately for you, the only thing His Holiness states in the out of context quotation is that THE HOLY SPIRIT OPERATES EVERYWHERE – he does not say that THE HOLY SPIRIT SAVES PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THE CHURCH. His obvious and Orthodox intention behind the statement, is that the HOLY SPIRIT WORKS THROUGH PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THE CHURCH IN ORDER TO BRING THEM TO THE CHURCH IN ORDER TO SAVE THEM, AND NOT THAT THEY WILL BE SAVED OUTSIDE OF THE CHURCH.

another argued for inclusiveness in reassessing their views of licit human sexuality and relations.

AGAIN, I point out the following:

Are you this stupid? Read his comments:

“When this appeal to the Bible [in a literal way] is combined with natural law,” he said, “it leads to exclusive and conservative positions.” He also objected to “statements [that] reflect a rather negative anthropology, where man is seen as a ‘fallen’ creature and sin is sexual.”

Now explain to me where you read his alleged condemnation of sexual purity, traditional morality and chastity, from that one out-of-context sentence? The statement is so ambiguous it could mean anything. Obiously in your Satanic agenda to humiliate the Bride of Christ (though to no avail) you will attempt to force the worst into that comment, but clearly there is no necessity in that interpretation. There are many so-called Christians who view sex as intrinsically or inherently sinful, and it is this false idealogy that he is clearly attacking. There is a limit to Orthodox conservatism before it comes unOrthodox; one who tries to assert the practise of chastity as a dogmatic necessity, then they are open to valid criticism, based on the teachings of the Apostle St Paul, who clearly did not condemn all sexual activity per se.

In the end, even granting your ridiculous unwarranted argument for arguments sake, one priests opinion on any matter does not overrule dogmatic Synodical declaration WHICH I HAVE ISSUED YOU. And if you want to continue this attempt to character assisinate clergy, how about I show you CLERGY OF YOUR OWN CHURCH WHO EXCERCISED INCLUSIVE SEXUALITY WITHIN YOUR OWN MONASTERIES. This is nothing new, it is well know, and I can gather links within 2 seconds. Far-fetched interpretations of ambiguous out-of-context stataments quoted in a polemical article are no match for news articles recalling facts concerning your monks PRACTISING INCLUSIVISM.

THERE WAS NO CONCERN OVER gnostic sects of the 1st-4th

Your stupidity owns you, apparently. Where did I mention Gnostic sects of the 1st-4th centuries?! I AM ADDRESSING CONTEMPORARY IDEAS WHICH RESEMBLE GNOSTIC IDEOLOGIES. THERE ARE CHRISTIANS WHO HAVE HETEREDOX IDEAS CONCERNING SEXUALITY, VIEWING SEXUALITY PER SE AS SINFUL, and stressing CHASTITY IN A DOGMATIC SENSE. Such IDEOLOGY IS REFLECTIVE OF GNOSTICISM, HENCE ITS BEING CRITICISED.

DO NOT ADDRESS ME ANY FURTHER.

STOP TELLING ME WHAT TO DO. You are a liar and is my duty expose you as a liar, just as it is the duty of my heavenly Father to expose your own father of lies. I will continue to address you as I so wish; I am not forcing you to respond.

You welcomed them into "your homeland" and gave it to them and offered generations to them. Tha's why it's THEIR HOMELAND NOW. LOL!

Yeah, do you know why? BECAUSE YOUR FATHERS WERE HERETICS WHOSE HANDS WERE COVERED BY THE BLOOD OF THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT COPTIC ORTHODOX MARTYRS. That’s why I said that your Fathers were more Muhammedian than Muhammed, since the Copts actually experienced some RELIEF under Islamic persecution, since it was at least of a less severe nature than that enacted by your HEARTLESS MERCILESS Schismatic Fathers, whose MURDEROUS FRUITS truly exposed their true identity.

but with nonsensical and dishonest verbal assaults.

AGAIN, you continue with the hypocrisy. Do you mean verbal assaults like:

dhimmis aren't free to speak on their own anyways.

Will you ever learn? I have no problem with you insulting me; go for your life. Just don’t whine about being insulted if you in turn are going to insult me. Got it?!

Fraction on Wisdom

"If we fear to preach the truth because that causes us some inconvenience, how, in our gatherings, can we chant the combats and triumphs of our holy martyrs?” - St. Cyril of Alexandria

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Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

This is the last public warning for both of you.

  1. You can exlain your beliefs, but you cannot attack (Eastern) Orthodoxy. This is a pro-Chalcedon forum.

  2. You can debate ideas, but you cannot attack people. You bioth have crossed this line repeatedly

  3. Please remember that it is Great and Holy week.I would hate to have to ban people because they could not control their passions right before Pascha![/color]

germanus
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Post by germanus »

to all those who read this thread...this is a prime example of how great the schism has become. Let it be known, though, no-one on this thread is the end all-be all representative of either the OO or EO Church. There are those on both sides, who, with good intentions, defend the faith through belief in what they think is right. But let not our worldly differences corrupt our hearts in a manner unbefitting a Christian. Let us greet eachother as Christians, with a brotherly kiss and end all strife that plagues the Orthodox church. How silly we can be. Brothers, please settle it and forgive the slanders that were made if you call yourselves christians. I would not even call a muslim brother "satanic". He is but mislead into a life of deception by the enemy who seeks to destroy. If we are not his children, but slaves of Christ, we will always struggle for the healing of our sinful hearts and ask God for His mercy. Let God be the judge. Lord have mercy. I will also state that I hereby resign as a member of this discussion board and ask forgiveness for any sins which I may have committed in word, deed, and thought towards any one on this site. I will continue to frequent this site but only as a bystander who hopes to see growth in my fellow christians. God bless you. +++

AndyHolland
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Post by AndyHolland »

Dear EkhristosAnesti

It is very easy to discern where the Church is. This Holy Saturday, the Lord will show the world, as he has every Holy Saturday for 1000 years that the true Church is Orthodox. He does this through the miracle of the Holy Fire which only comes to the Orthodox Patriarch in Jerusalem.

The Armenian Patriarch recognizes this miracle, as do the Ethiopians for they receive the Holy Fire from the Orthodox Patriarch. The Lord knows who to distribute the Holy Fire to! He gives it directly and firstly to the Patriarch of Jerusalem - who proclaims the seven Ecumenical Counsels.

The Lord is faithful, even if we are not faithful and his mercy endures for ever. He makes chrystal clear where the church is, as he made his commandments known in the Holy Gospels, in Holy Scripture, in the Saints and in the teachings of the Holy Fathers - for Holy Scripture is not a matter of personal interpretation.

When the Armenians locked the Orthodox out of the Church of the Holy Resurrection, the Holy Fire burst through a pillar and lit the Patriarch's candle for all to see.

http://www.holyfire.org/eng/doc_GreatMiracle.htm

You ask us to debate you - but God has clearly made manifest the truth before your eyes that the Orthodox of the Seven Councils receive the Holy Fire. Would God reward liars and slanderers with such a blessing? Yet to humble sinners he provides these signs year in and year out for repentance - yet few repent and return to the true Church!

We don't have to judge one another. We don't have to accuse. We don't have to be right - in fact, we need to see ourselves as wrong - as sinners. We have but to open our eyes and see the light of Christ which illumines all, repent of our sins, see ourselves as the sinners and not judge our brothers - for one is Holy, the Lord!

andy holland
sinner

EkhristosAnesti
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Post by EkhristosAnesti »

Kollyvas,

I hope you had a blessed Pascha and Easter; hopefully it has calmed you down and maybe we can continue this dialogue without your caps-lock and petty insults.

How many more were kidnapped today and forced into islam due to your mendacity?

Please study objective history, and note the following facts:

1) Your own Church was using military force for the purpose of coercing us to leave the Orthodox Church to acknowledge alien doctrine. Your Church was mass-slaughtering Orthodox faithful because they wouldn’t accept Chalcedon. Our Church commemorates hosts of thousands upon thousands, and ten thousands upon ten thousands of Holy Orthodox Martyrs and Confessors of Orthodoxy, that died and suffered at the hands and instructions of your fathers and saints. Coptic scholar Iris Habib El-Masri notes in book The True Story of the Copts, that as horrific as Islamic rule was, The Church actually experienced a period of relief under Islamic rule; that is the sad truth and reality of the matter. You have nothing to gloat about regarding this matter, and yet everything to be ashamed of, for your Church not only upholds heretics like Justinian and Leo of Rome as Orthodox Fathers, but it commemorates these murderers as Saints.

Yet we, the true Orthodox, suffered, and we count our sufferings for the sake of Christ, whether under pagan, Chalcedonian, or Islamic rule, to be a means by which Christ is glorified, as He was glorified in His own humiliation, suffering, and death. What is ironic is the fact that although the Oriental Orthodox Church was under the yoke of persecution (i.e. the persecution instigated by your Saints and Fathers) long before the Islamic invasion, that ultimately we have outgrown the Chalcedonians in the lands of the Ancient Patriarchates. There is no competition. Look at Alexandria and Constantinople in particular; Chalcedonian population there is negligible and dwindling.

2) The battle for Oriental Orthodox territories between the Chalcedonians and the Islamics was a battle between thieves and murderers who treated such Oriental Orthodox territories as their own God-given inheritance. Why would you expect our loyalty and support, when you were killing us in our own land? Please employ a little common sense here; the murderers cannot accuse the victims of their massacres of being mendacious for assisting an enemy of those very murderers who, even though eventually turning out to be murderers themselves, treated the Copts better than the Byzantines.

3) Please consult respectable scholarship regarding the Islamic invasion of OO territories. You will find that with respect to Egypt in particular, that the city of Alexandria was captured due to the mendacity, treachery and incompetence of your own Chalcedonian Patriarch Cyrus.

Furthermore, the fragile political and religious atmosphere that truly produced fertile ground for Islamic invasion, ultimately goes back to Chalcedon – the Council corrupted by political intrigues and crypto-Nestorianism.

Now I posted the FACT that Non Chalcedonians consider the Orthodox Orthodox

The dialogues in question declare a mutual agreement regarding the present Orthodoxy of the Christological faith of each other’s Church. There is no suggestion as to the other’s relationship with The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church, nor any suggestion with respect to how many Ecumenical Councils there are. The Orthodox representatives in that dialogue do NOT consider the Chalcedonian Church to be part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Orthodox Church of God. The Orthodox representatives in that dialogue do NOT consider Chalcedon et al to be Ecumenical Councils, nor have they ever suggested that there is any willingness on our part to compromise the God-inspired Tradition of the Church by accepting further Councils as Ecumenical, as if the Church was in ignorance for 1500 years. What they recognise, is that the Chalcedonian Church is Orthodox in spite of these Councils; the manner that your Church currently interprets the Councils in question is in fact Orthodox.

I recommend you read Fr. V.C. Samuel's Chalcedon Re-Examined, H.H. Sarkissian's The Council of Chalcedon and the Armenian Church, and the articles of H.E. Metropiltan Bishoy and H.E. Paulos Gregorios. They all defend St. Dioscoros as a Confessor of Orthodoxy, who was falsely accused and falsely ex-communicated. They all defend the integrity of Ephesus II (449), a Council which Chalcedon misjudged, misinterpreted, and falsely condemned. Both these points in and of themselves suffice in negating the alleged Ecumenicity of Chalcedon.

They furthermore uphold the fact that Chalcedon's being interpreted as Nestorian was most reasonable i.e. the events of Chalcedon gave the Orthodox Church every good reason to believe that it was Nestorian; it was not a matter of ignorance or stubborness, for that ignorance and stubborness was on behalf of your own Church. Ultimately then, they defend the idea that the division was caused by Chalcedon, and that Chalcedon was at fault, regardless of how Orthodox the Council may retrospectively be interpreted.

FYI, +hilarion (alfeyev) and +kalistos (ware) aren't highly regarded by Orthodox Traditionalists

What a cop-out. You bring up the work of one Coptic monk, who has been formally critisised and rebuked by actual authorities of the Church (i.e. Bishops and Patriarchs), to try and prove through the worst line of logic, that the Orthodox (Oriental) Church is not the Orthodox Church, and yet when I bring up actual authorities (i.e. Bishops) of your Church whose works present not simply a “confused” or “inadequate” understanding of a subject, but clearly heretical understandings of certain subjects, you are unable to apply your very own logic to conclude that your Church is not the Church. Such arguments represent the height of desperation, and the plight of your abnegation of The Church.

and certainly ARE NOT recognized as authorities

Unless they have been ex-communicated, then they are authorities, by virtue of their very positions as Bishops within your Church. This is basic Orthodox ecclesiology, unless you're a Protestant.

Succinctly, your own contradict you

This statement just goes to prove how little you know. You have evidently read little to nothing of any of the works of Fr. V.C. Samuel, H.H. Sarkissian, or H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy, and His Eminence Paulos Gregorios (key figures of the dialogues in question) on the subject of Chalcedon and potential Orthodox-Chalcedonian unity. I have no objections to the findings of the Joint-Commission, but those findings, interpreted in their proper context do not suggest anything regarding a) which Church is, as it stands, the True Church or b) how many Councils are truly Ecumenical. In fact, I would suggest that the corollary implications of the findings in question answer both these questions in favour of the Orthodox position as opposed to the Chalcedonian position.

While I simply laugh at you as worthy of ridicule, a dhimmi content with his repression praising the demoniac mohammed

You have to be careful with the kind of rhetoric you choose to employ in furthering your ungodly agenda here; more importantly, you have to be careful not to underestimate how much your opponent knows, else they may make you eat your own words. In actual fact and history, it was your own Chalcedonian Patriarch of Alexandria who has been recorded (in 1982) as “praising the demoniac mohammed”:

"The prophet Mohammed is an apostle. He is a man of God, who worked for the Kingdom of God and created Islam, a religion to which belong one billion people. ...Our God is the Father of all men, even of the Moslems and Buddhists. I believe that God loves the Moslems and the Buddhists...When I speak against Islam or Buddhism, then I am not found in agreement with God. ...My God is the God of other men also. He is not only God for the Orthodox. This is my position."

So laugh all you want, but the joke is on you, for as the Coptic Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria writes books and treatises countering Islamic polemics, your Patriarch was feeding Islamic apologetics.

In your own words:

LOL!!! My belly hurts.

THESE ARE NOT THE COPTIC PEOPLE, WHOM I LOVE & HONOUR

It’s too late to try and save your integrity now. You have already gloated with respect to the persecution of my people. I have Muslim friends who are more respectful of the sufferings of my people than you. Furthermore, you have slandered the Copts’ beloved Church, attacked their holy clergy, and misrepresented their position; you have, beyond all reasonable doubt, hated them. Every Copt knows that he or she is in the One True Church; they experience this every time they lift up their hands in prayer, every time they cross themselves, every time they light a candle in front of a Holy Icon, every time they venerate the relics of one of the Holy Martyrs, every time they visit a monastery, every time they chant the ancient Coptic hymns of the Church, every time they perform a metanya in front of the Holy Altar, and every time they partake of the Holy Body and the Precious Blood of Christ.

The Copts (myself being an exception) are generally a warm and loving people; yes, they desire unity with your Church, but not because they “long for Orthodoxy”, as if they don’t already experience it in the here and now, as those before them experienced then and there, but because they love the Lord and wish to fulfill His will and desire as expressed in His cry to the Father at Gethsemane; the will and desire that the entire world worship Him in Unity and in Truth.

Last edited by EkhristosAnesti on Mon 24 April 2006 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fraction on Wisdom

"If we fear to preach the truth because that causes us some inconvenience, how, in our gatherings, can we chant the combats and triumphs of our holy martyrs?” - St. Cyril of Alexandria

EkhristosAnesti
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Post by EkhristosAnesti »

Dear AndyHolland,

It is very easy to discern where the Church is. This Holy Saturday, the Lord will show the world, as he has every Holy Saturday for 1000 years that the true Church is Orthodox

The True Church is the Orthodox Church indeed; we simply disagree with respect to which Church is the Orthodox Church, yet I could likewise employ your logic to conclude that the Oriental Orthodox Church is the Orthodox Church also. Do you think your Church is the only Church to have claimed miraculous occurrences? The Holy Light has manifested itself in Coptic contexts for centuries my friend.

Just a couple of months ago, the Holy Light appeared and marveled thousands at St. Mikhails Coptic Orthodox Church in Assiut Egypt. Assiut, like Jerusalem, is a Holy Sight, for it was occupied by the Holy Family for approximately 6 months during their sojourn to Egypt. Coptic Orthodox Churches are consecrated in the exact spots that the Holy Family stayed and visited. The Copts in Assiut are some of the strongest Orthodox Christians in spirit, in the world. They face Islamic persecution on the one hand, and Protestant proselytes struggling to steal sheep from the flock on the other. The Lord however, showed His great Mercy, when His Uncreated Light shone through the icons of the Church during the Holy Liturgy; that uncreated light then descended towards the Holy Qorban, just before the point during the Liturgy where the Holy Qurban transforms into the Body of God The Word. This was witnessed by all present in that Church, and when all the Copts of that town heard of it, they all gathered at that Church for the next Liturgy to the extent that the streets surrounding the Church were blocked by crowds of people. Nearing the end of the service the Bishop tried to convince people to disperse, telling them that the Holy Light only came once and that it would not come again that day, but at that moment God revealed His Mercy once again, as the Icons and oblations once again illuminated before the people.

This is just one story amongst thousands, and glory be to God that amongst those thousands of miraculous occurrences He has allowed few to be captured by photographic evidence. This includes the Theotokos' appearance in front of millions of Copts, Muslims, Jews etc. over St Mary's Coptic Orthodox Church in Zietoun Egypt, and even her visit at Assiut in 2000. The Church has encountered innumerable incidents involving Apparitions, weeping icons, Eucharistic miracles, communication with departed Coptic Saints, Holy Clergy casting out demons from Muslims, having the ability to heal etc. etc.

You may personally believe the Holy Light appearing in Christ’s tomb to be good enough evidence to confirm you in your own faith, but that is merely relative and subjective in the context of the fact that the innumerable miraculous incidents summarised above, all qualify as good enough evidence for the millions of Coptic Orthodox faithful of their own faith.

On a personal note, although I can appreciate the simplicity of one's faith that would compel them to take miraculous occurences as unquestionable proofs of the validity of their faith, it is not how I personally operate. I also believe that there is a fine line between a simple faith that submits to such miraculous occurences and an insecure faith that hangs on miraculous occurences.

Fraction on Wisdom

"If we fear to preach the truth because that causes us some inconvenience, how, in our gatherings, can we chant the combats and triumphs of our holy martyrs?” - St. Cyril of Alexandria

AndyHolland
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Post by AndyHolland »

EkhristosAnesti wrote:

Dear AndyHolland,

It is very easy to discern where the Church is. This Holy Saturday, the Lord will show the world, as he has every Holy Saturday for 1000 years that the true Church is Orthodox

The True Church is the Orthodox Church indeed; we simply disagree with respect to which Church is the Orthodox Church, yet I could likewise employ your logic to conclude that the Oriental Orthodox Church is the Orthodox Church also. Do you think your Church is the only Church to have claimed miraculous occurrences? The Holy Light has manifested itself in Coptic contexts for centuries my friend.
....
On a personal note, although I can appreciate the simplicity of one's faith that would compel them to take miraculous occurences as unquestionable proofs of the validity of their faith, it is not how I personally operate. I also believe that there is a fine line between a simple faith that submits to such miraculous occurences and an insecure faith that hangs on miraculous occurences.

Absolutely agree. Am well aware of the miracles that have and do occur at Coptic Churches. That is why I am one of the "Yes" votes that believes that dialogue is important.

The Coptic Church recognizes the Holy Fire miracle, and God sends the Holy Fire to the Orthodox faithful on Holy Saturday. That does not happen for the Protestants or for the RC. The Armenian Patriarch also does not receive the Holy Fire except from Orthodox.

God is our defense against accusations of slander and lies.

As to faith issues, the Lord was very explicit about us believing in accordance with the works themselves if need be - because when we see Good we know it is of God.

andy holland
sinner

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