THE "MP" - THE WHORE UPON MANY WATERS

[Carthaginian]

Canonically speaking, a bishop who got his seat thanks to the political power should be deposed. So are they real bishops? I doubt it and I do not know.

To say that a hierarch should be deposed is quite a different matter from saying that he, along with the entire flock of people under him, is thrust out of the Church if he is not, is quite another. The deposition of bishops who violate the canons, but are not heretical, is an administrative matter, not a matter of the faith, and certainly not a matter of the continued communion of those churchmen who are under such hierarchs.

Worse even, they di not repent but found justifications to their collaboration with the communist regime saying, we saved the church through collaborating etc... I have never seen such a fake repentance. The problem is not that they collaborated. The case happened during persecution by the Romans. But people were asked after that to repent sincerely and had an epitimy...

I fully agree. The actions of the hierarchs of the MP at this time was reprehensible, but in all this, they did not teach heresy. The common Russian laity under the MP not only never consented to heresy, but gave many confessors and martyrs to join the ranks of the saints of ages past. I'll side with these martyrs rather than armchair western theologians who judge them excluded from the church because their hierarchs betrayed them.

[Jean-Serge]

The common Russian laity under the MP not only never consented to heresy, but gave many confessors and martyrs to join the ranks of the saints of ages past. I'll side with these martyrs rather than armchair western theologians who judge them excluded from the church because their hierarchs betrayed them.

Maybe they were from the catacomb church and not the MP... I do not judge the flock but the hierarchs who are still luring their flock...

For me the MP (as it is) has no reason to keep on existig?. I t was created by Stalin and tolerated by his successor as a way to control the church and the mind of people. Since communism is dead, those who were in fact serving communism (the MP hirerarchs) should also leave... It is logical...

[AndyHolland]

Years ago I read part of St. Irenaeus work, "Against the Heresies", and from a otherwise useless website obtained conformation of my poor memory:

Simon Magus was labelled "the father of all heretics" by Irenaeus in the Preface of his "Against Heresies, III."

Simony comes from Simon Magus - and I believe the Church Cannons come down very hard on those who practice it - Anathema. Given what some of the E.P.'s have been doing for the 20th Century - maybe we need to be enforcing the Rudder strictly.

The Church's course is guided by the Rudder, and the Church is the true Ark. She must sail where God wills her to the deep where the Leviathin is that He made to sport in - not where man's whims take it to the deadly shoals where the catch is rather insignificant.

That said, I'd love to see a union with the M.P. and the rest of Orthodoxy - but I'd also like to see Orthodoxy remain Orthodox, and not Old Protestant or Old Roman Catholic.

your Antiochian sympathizer,

andy

[Nikodemus]

I have changed my views many times on these matters since my conversion to Orthodoxy and I have become more and more moderate in my conclusions.

I just want to mention some facts that I sense are confused in this discussion-

I have read that MP under the communist period was not in heresy, but how do you then understand the orthodox creed about: One Holy and Apostolic Church...? In one very orthodox interpretation of the word Catholic and Apostolic...the MP under communism was very far from this orthodox interpretation.

Now, however we have a new situation after the fall of communism. The MP today has more and more been transformed to a patriarchate much like the other patriarchates in the Church and even have published a document on the relationship between church and state that theoretically are against the meaning of sergianism.

In the last you have to experience yourself if there exist grace in a n MP church or not and trust your heart. I had this experience of grace.

[CorpusChristi]

That is why Mp needs Rocor, so that when God sees it fit and the time comes for a new Patri-arch the Succession of Proper Bishops will be there to vote and welcome the Holy spirit to guide them-Thus the Patri-arch will be established according to Gods will and not the governments will as we have seen since Sergis........What will be interesting is being able to have another St.Tikhon as the Patri-arch to again establish guardianship of God`s Holy Russia and propperly shephard the millions in the Russian Orthodox church inside/outside cc

[SouthernOrthodox]

Excellent point, haven't even considered that aspect of the future. But the problem I see would arise would be the Jurisdiction that arose from ROCOR, where would they fit in. So it would stand to reason, they would have the most to lose and thus, we see headlines like the one's we have seen on this board. Irregardless, if you are pro/anti untia, take time to ponder what CorpusChristi has said and if we can get past our own agendas on how Christ should lead his church it may make a little more sense, (or maybe not as I have a feeling some will never get it).

[AndyHolland]

Well, maybe this is a heretical view - but if God is infinite, and God is Love according to the Scriptures, then God's Grace is infinite and extends to all. That is not universal salvation - but Grace is infinite. In fact it is so pervasive, we are free to accept or reject it.

Scripture forbids arguing another his religion and sins against the Holy Spirit are unforgivable. It seems like judgement that man is not able to make.

As Christians, we don't have to judge others. Even an anathema is simply setting aside judgement for Christ - it is an act of love - because Christians are compelled in the fullness of truth to act in love. An Anathema is inherently merciful - Christ is merciful.

yours in Christ,

andy