Prayer to the Theotokos in Typika

[GOCPriestMark]

I honor the Virgin. I know that she prays for us. But I had real problems with the specifics of the liturgy in question, specifically with making her a source of blessings and salvation. I'm trying to make sense of them, in the context of considering Orthodoxy.

It is deeply rooted in Orthodox conscienceness that God is the Source of all good things, so for us it is impossible to think that the Theotokos or the Saints can give us anything without it being the Will of God. So in asking the Theotokos or a Saint to "save us" or anything else mentioned in the Church's prayers we know that it can only come about by the Will of God. It is the experience of the Church that God is pleased to work wonderous miracles through the intercessions of His friends, His beloved followers. It has nothing to do with "rules thought up by sinful men in order to obtain power", but has everything to do with Divine revelation and the experience of the Church.


I couldn't find a copy of "The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God" on line, but I did come across this great work on the Theotokos.

Priest Mark Smith
Edmonton

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Jim,

I have been told that the prayers once (i don't know how long) read "pray for us", but now they read "save us". Of course, as I and Fr. Mark mentioned, if you have a solid understanding of what this can only mean then there is no problem. In fact, "save us" is better since we know from other miracles there seems to be more that the Holy Theotokos can do besides pray in order to intercede. In this way then, we can also say St. Nicholas "save us!".

In the after communion prayers first mentioned in this thread (which I was reading as saying the Mysteries were hers!) it is easy to see the trouble you arehaving.

If you were stranded in the ocean and a cruise ship was passing close-by, and you saw one of the passengers was looking at you - you would say "save me!". This passenger did not have the authority to turn the ship around, but he could intercede with the Captain on your behalf. In that sense he "saved you", even if he didn't do any of the actual saving. Same with this prayer after Holy Communion. You thank the Holy Theotokos for finding you worthy for her intercessions.

My recommendation still stands however.

[GOCPriestMark]

Jim, I have been told that the prayers once (i don't know how long) read "pray for us", but now they read "save us".

I doubt that the Greek has been changed.

In this way then, we can also say St. Nicholas "save us!".

I meant to add that in the icon of St. Nicholas in the boat on the turbulent sea, the words do in fact say 'St. Nicholas save us!'

.

[TomS]

Especially when it gives Tom the audacity to speak against her and anybody else who would say anything negative about the Mother of God.

This is very upsetting to me.

Well, I am not saying ANYTHING negative about Mary. Mary is not to be held accountable for how the Church has used her. I am sure SHE would not approve at ALL with what the Church has done.

[Jean-Serge]

I am sure SHE would not approve at ALL with what the Church has done.

Of course!!! Because qhe told you!!! :mrgreen:

[GOCPriestMark]

"Often, doubtless, when we have not the Lord's passion in mind and see the image of Christ's crucifixion, His saving passion is brought back to remembrance, and we fall down and worship not the material but that which is imaged: just as we do not worship the material of which the Gospels are made, nor the material of the Cross, but that which these typify. For wherein does the cross, that typifies the Lord, differ from a cross that does not do so? It is just the same also in the case of the Mother of the Lord. For the honour which we give to her is referred to Him Who was made of her incarnate. And similarly also the brave acts of holy men stir us up to be brave and to emulate and imitate their valour and to glorify God. For as we said, the honour that is given to the best of fellow-servants is a proof of good-will towards our common Lady, and the honour rendered to the image passes over to the prototype. But this is an unwritten tradition, just as is also the worshiping towards the East and the worship of the Cross, and very many other similar things."

St. John of Damascus