A new "walling off" has begun?

[SouthernOrthodox]

My comment was a light hearted attempt at a serious issue. I saw from a very young age families broken apart, (be it by choice) over the introduction of English in the service. My belief is we in ROCOR are no more right, no more Russian and dare say no more Orthodox than any Russian Orthodox Jurisdiction. I believe and support the move to right the wrongs. Being from an Old-Rite Parish and now belonging to a New-Rite Parish some of the customs that were considered sacrilege before seem to make sense now. Am I more Orthodox because I belong to ROCOR of course not. The bottom line is we should all try to be more god-fearing Christian Men and Women in the world. Isn't that what "True Orthodoxy" strives for.

There something that is not well that I come listening of you... you confuse what is to be Russian with what is to be an orthodox. I could assure that equation Russian=Orthodox many times is inexact.

Father, please forgive me. My assertion was not to state the correlation between being Russian and being Orthodox. I know of many fine Russians who are of Jewish tradition are they any less Russian, of course not. Do I know what it is to be Russia, not very much. My Grand-Parents immigrated to America and I was born and raised here. I do believe, however, the Russian tradition. Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy the world around be it Greek, Coptic, American etc. etc.. So I am not really sure your point here. Thank you Father.

[Joseph]

Sothern Orthodoxy wrote:

"The bottom line is we should all try to be more god-fearing Christian Men and Women in the world. Isn't that what "True Orthodoxy" strives for"

One need not even be Orthodox to have this as their goal. Many devout Protestants and Roman Catholics have the same goal. I believe that being a True Orthodox means striving for theosis while holding the correct faith and while fleeing from communion with heresy and those in communion with heresy.

[SouthernOrthodox]

Good point, but isn't that one of the steps to achieve that. My original point was bottom-line starting point. I agree that this is true with other confessions, but only with Orthodoxy is the line kept strait.

[Sean]

OOD has made several very valid points in this thread which have been only partially addressed- at best- by those arguing with him. The gist I'm getting from Katya and SouthernOrthodox is that aside from their own priests and bishops, they simply don't know who to trust. This is understandable, given the very confusing nature of the tribulations, sown by the evil one, plaguing the Old Calendar confessors. Several months ago, I jumped a gun in a thread and accused Katya of being pro-Sergianist because I thought I could read between the lines of what she was saying. I judged her and others of side-stepping the issues, when confronted with facts about the wrongness of this imminent union, and the ecumenism of the so-called "World Orthodox." Again, I ask your forgiveness.
But really, I perfectly understand why so many of the the Old Calendar confessor groups would seem unappealing to those who have been nurtured in ROCOR all these years. So many of these confessors have been smeared with very ugly enigmas, the proliferation of which only serves the evil one.
When those in ROCOR make vague statements which may sound pro-union, and then back out of such statements by saying, " I just don't know. I'm waiting to see how things turn out." I think they should be taken at face value. However, when it all hits the pavement, and no one in ROCOR is making any more nebulous statements about union with the Sergianists, because it has already been achieved, then I hope they will all make the right decision and stay with the Church.
Here is some food for thought when some of you may possibly be looking for a new spiritual home: if you ever have to undertake the task of weeding through the web of various slanders that have been hurled against right-believing hierarchs and clergy, ask yourself,

1. prior to their being slandered, what did these clergyman stand for?

2. whose agenda was threatened by their stance?

3. who were the key figures in either slandering these clergy or forcing them into retirement?

4. upon the removal of these hierarchs/clergy, how quickly and unimpeded did those who were formerly threatened by their confession of faith then implement their agenda?

I find it very conspicuous that, since the repose of St. Philaret, all of the most influential hierarchs and clergymen in ROCOR, who presented the largest threat to the pro-Sergianist faction have either been forced into retirement or had their characters completely assassinated by charges of immorality.

[SouthernOrthodox]

Sean, thank you for your insight. When it comes to change, Orthodox and Russian in particular don't really know how to handle it. I for one am not a great proponent to change (so my wife says), but when our trust and confidence are in a synod then I follow what direction they direct. The deep-rooted tradition remains unchanged, who we commune with may. I don't agree with the political goings on with regards to personal attacks. I am no one to judge.

[Fr. Dcn. Eugene Durkee]

Okay, I'm taking a risk here, of censure from many quarters.

First of all, I am a clerical member (deacon) of the Holy Orthodox Church in North America: HOCNA. The reason I am in HOCNA is that thus far, my bishops (Ephraim of Boston, Macarios of Toronto, Moses of Seattle, and Sergius of... someplace in CA, I can't remember where) confess the Orthodox Faith. Our stance is to have absolutely no communion with ecumenist bodies (clerical and lay members) in prayer, services, or in Communion of the Mysteries. Beyond that, we make no statements about which of the ecumenist "Orthodox" bodies have grace or not.

My parish is quite "normal," one would say. As members "one of another," we've been through a lot, have seen all of each other's "dirty laundry," so to speak -- the family tragedies, the personal imperfections, the fights over the flower arrangements at Pascha, etc. We have very FEW people who "look Orthodox" (i.e., wear prayer ropes on their belts, quote the Philokalia, etc... you know what I mean... sorry for being harsh). My kids are in rock bands; I'd never buy the CD's, believe me, but I respect and joy in what they do, because it's creative and cool.

As an Orthodox Christian, I DO believe that doctrine, and purity of doctrine as received from Christ and the Apostles, matters very much; matters the most.

As a deacon, I have been more than privy to the documents and arguments surrounding our (and I mean ALL of OUR) jurisdictional divisions. And I -- though I believe I possess a reasonable degree of intelligence -- still can't figure it out.

For instance, I read all the documentation surrounding Fr. Victor Melnehov's departure from HOCNA to ROAC. It made sense to me, why he did that. I of course read all of our stuff (HOCNA) about how bad a decision that was. Read in that light, it made sense, too.

I recently read a horrificaly long account, in very bad English (like, 72 pages!), of how the "Kallinikos Synod" and the "Kiousis Synod" came to be separated from each other. It all made sense... sort of. I'm sure the "Kiousis Synod" could come up with equivalent documents, and they would make sense, too... sort of.

I've read stuff (again, usually extremely boring and poorly written)about why the original Auxentian Synod split.

From my viewpoint, if one really wanted to get to the bottom of the OC squabbles in Greece, one would have to have a doctoral dissertation. I actually started reading all the Councils, in the Eerdman's series, to see if I could get a better grasp of the subject. Anybody on this list think that will help me?

The sad thing is, when bishops makes decisions -- I'm talking about ALL of OUR bishops -- they can go back home, to their monasteries, and rest secure in the fact that they are right, and perhaps the only ones right. We, on the other hand, in the world, have to contend with fractured families, fractured friendships, limited marital options for our children, smaller and smaller parishes, and almost a total lack of ability to evangelize effectively.

Most of what I've read regarding the jurisdictional differences among the OC seems to center around conflicts in lifestyle/piety, personal attacks directed against people who have made human mistakes, panic at the thought of losing control, and so forth.

I have a fantasy, sometimes, that all of us will get together and COLLECTIVELY "coup" our bishops, like: we're ALL going to do readers' services until you guys get it together. But the world, and maybe even God (I'm not high in the spiritual discernment area), doesn't work like that.

I don't know how to end this, except to say, that I respect you all. I know what turmoil must go on in your minds regarding our differences. I know, very personally, how that can interfere with the joy of living a life in Christ. Many of you I would gladly worship with, if my bishops permitted it.

Let's take heart together. The Church must prevail, sound in doctrine, sound in love. I don't know how it will happen, but if I didn't believe it, I wouldn't be Orthodox. Let's find some joy in our Christian life.

I wish you all Godspeed, and the best,

Fr. Deacon Eugene

[Priest Siluan]

Okay, I'm taking a risk here, of censure from many quarters.

First of all, I am a clerical member (deacon) of the Holy Orthodox Church in North America: HOCNA. The reason I am in HOCNA is that thus far, my bishops (Ephraim of Boston, Macarios of Toronto, Moses of Seattle, and Sergius of... someplace in CA, I can't remember where) confess the Orthodox Faith. Our stance is to have absolutely no communion with ecumenist bodies (clerical and lay members) in prayer, services, or in Communion of the Mysteries. Beyond that, we make no statements about which of the ecumenist "Orthodox" bodies have grace or not.

My parish is quite "normal," one would say. As members "one of another," we've been through a lot, have seen all of each other's "dirty laundry," so to speak -- the family tragedies, the personal imperfections, the fights over the flower arrangements at Pascha, etc. We have very FEW people who "look Orthodox" (i.e., wear prayer ropes on their belts, quote the Philokalia, etc... you know what I mean... sorry for being harsh). My kids are in rock bands; I'd never buy the CD's, believe me, but I respect and joy in what they do, because it's creative and cool.

As an Orthodox Christian, I DO believe that doctrine, and purity of doctrine as received from Christ and the Apostles, matters very much; matters the most.

As a deacon, I have been more than privy to the documents and arguments surrounding our (and I mean ALL of OUR) jurisdictional divisions. And I -- though I believe I possess a reasonable degree of intelligence -- still can't figure it out.

For instance, I read all the documentation surrounding Fr. Victor Melnehov's departure from HOCNA to ROAC. It made sense to me, why he did that. I of course read all of our stuff (HOCNA) about how bad a decision that was. Read in that light, it made sense, too.

I recently read a horrificaly long account, in very bad English (like, 72 pages!), of how the "Kallinikos Synod" and the "Kiousis Synod" came to be separated from each other. It all made sense... sort of. I'm sure the "Kiousis Synod" could come up with equivalent documents, and they would make sense, too... sort of.

I've read stuff (again, usually extremely boring and poorly written)about why the original Auxentian Synod split.

From my viewpoint, if one really wanted to get to the bottom of the OC squabbles in Greece, one would have to have a doctoral dissertation. I actually started reading all the Councils, in the Eerdman's series, to see if I could get a better grasp of the subject. Anybody on this list think that will help me?

The sad thing is, when bishops makes decisions -- I'm talking about ALL of OUR bishops -- they can go back home, to their monasteries, and rest secure in the fact that they are right, and perhaps the only ones right. We, on the other hand, in the world, have to contend with fractured families, fractured friendships, limited marital options for our children, smaller and smaller parishes, and almost a total lack of ability to evangelize effectively.

Most of what I've read regarding the jurisdictional differences among the OC seems to center around conflicts in lifestyle/piety, personal attacks directed against people who have made human mistakes, panic at the thought of losing control, and so forth.

I have a fantasy, sometimes, that all of us will get together and COLLECTIVELY "coup" our bishops, like: we're ALL going to do readers' services until you guys get it together. But the world, and maybe even God (I'm not high in the spiritual discernment area), doesn't work like that.

I don't know how to end this, except to say, that I respect you all. I know what turmoil must go on in your minds regarding our differences. I know, very personally, how that can interfere with the joy of living a life in Christ. Many of you I would gladly worship with, if my bishops permitted it.

Let's take heart together. The Church must prevail, sound in doctrine, sound in love. I don't know how it will happen, but if I didn't believe it, I wouldn't be Orthodox. Let's find some joy in our Christian life.

I wish you all Godspeed, and the best,

Fr. Deacon Eugene

Although my mentality is distant to HOCNA, I should admit that I coincide in many points with your post. The Traditional Orthodoxy is threatened of destruction so much division and fractures, and sad thing of this whole question is that the only beneficiaries with these disputes are the ecumenists, who love to make fun of our weaknesses.

With love in Christ

Fr Siluan