Chairs and Pews in Traditionalist Churches what is going on?

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Sabbas
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Post by Sabbas »

Taking pride in the stamina you have while standing during long services does more harm than good. A spiritual father of mine told me a long time ago that if your feet are bothering you to the point of distraction, sit down and remove the distraction and refocus on your prayer. Advice that I have followed most of my life. I'm sure there are people who judge me for it since I "seem" to the casual observer to be in good health, etc. You stand out of respect to God, but I'm sure that God will not condemn you for sitting every once and a while.

Trust me I do not judge you and understand completely. My sister once visited the mission I go to and fainted because she was not used to standing up for so long and didn't know if she should sit down. If you really need to sit down there should be benches there for you and no one should judge you, no matter what age you are, or make it into some kind of contest to see who can stand the longest. I hope I am not coming off prideful about this. I am just curious about the G.O.C.

Ekaterina
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Post by Ekaterina »

Sabbas:

I did not find you post offensive. We all must take care of presumption especially since it leads to judgements.

Everyone does things to different degrees, some having to do with convenience. But we are also lazy people and some of us need to be spoonfed. I attended a Greek church once and it is not something I hope to repeat.... ever .

I was uncoforatble with the pews, but hey it wasn't my church. But when the first bell went off and everyone sat down, I admit I was a bit flamuxed. Then the bell went off again and everyone stood up....at that point I thought I was hallucinating..... then the bell went off again and everyone knelt down. I could hardly believe my eyes! I looked at my friend who shrugged her shoulders as if to say "i know, I know". To this day I still marvel at the whole experience.

Katya

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Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Sabbas,

The GOC churches here in the states are the same as they are in Greece. In Greece, you cannot tell a GOC church from an ecumenist one except by the readings they do for that day. The GOA church here are a different story as Ekaterini mentioned.

With regard to the chairs in the GOC here in America: I don't like them very much myself, but with the exception of the Cathedral, all of the churches I have been to it seems most of the younger people stand. These churches are packed and the chairs are only taken up by a percentage of the older folks. They also come in handy for people carrying small children.

What's good about the chairs also is that they can be moved very easily so they don't usually get in the way of prostrations.

They are really a non-factor.

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sue57
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Post by sue57 »

My rocor church has benches against the walls, and several elderly people bring chairs. Almost everyone sits during the priest's sermon (which is, admittedly, brief.) I would say that standing constistutes about 80% of the Liturgy, give or take. However, God forgive us if we're keeping track of who stands and who sits!!!

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joasia
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Post by joasia »

CHRIST IS RISEN!

But part of the fight against Modernism, the spirit of the age, is to fight its pernicious influences which include making spirituality more 'comfortable.' If the G.O.C. is supposed to be dedicated to that fight than they should include keeping chairs from being placed in neat rows.

I agree with you. It's the reflection of the influence of laxness in the reverence of faith

The chairs that I spoke of in my church are not in rows. There are 4 hear and there. And they are reserved for the elderly, who occupy the same places every week. All the rest of us stand. But, like I said, the older ones and I'm talking 85 years and up, stand at the most sacred times. I can see that they are doing it with all their strength. They are a blessed example of true reverence of faith. One woman, who is 89 insists on coming to church, even in her frail state. She has been hospitalized often, but she will stand at these sacred moments. She even insisted on doing the whole Great Lent, even though, she is so physically weak. Her daughter, who is in her 60's, is beside herself with worry, but her mother is a great example of the true Russian spirituality.

The very reason why this bothers me is that it says a lot about peoples spiritual conduct. If they say they want to fight to maintain Church Tradition but don't mind sitting down during the Divine Liturgy when they could very well stand, then what is the point? You save the Church Calendar while leaving the backdoor open for other problems to enter.

This is true. The general Orthodox populace have waned in their faith, but it also stems from their upbringing. It is the responsibility of the clergy to uphold a spiritual Orthodox example.

But, from another perspective, we should understand that every individual soul is on their particular path and that they can be led to God according to His will.

I'm reading a book about the life of Fr. Arseny who was sent to the "special camp" in 1939, during Stalin's time. At one point, he died from the flu epedemic. He came back to life and his experience was recorded. He said that when he was out of his body, he saw the world in a different light. He saw the people surrounding his bed, but he could actually see their souls. He said some had big burning lights of faith and some had little sparks and some were black and dark. In his humility he said that he realized that there were people that he didn't notice, who were good people, always helping others and they all had these burning flames, whether tiny or large. But, we can't see people's souls and therefore we assume too much out of error.

I'm saying this because, although there may be chairs in certain churches and they may seem lax in their faith, we really don't have the 100% fact about each individual soul. We don't see their souls, only God does. Fr. Arseny was in a prison camp of political prisoners and hard core criminals(who would beat and killed the other political prisoners just for fun). But, some of those criminals(who were all atheists) came to believe in God and it was due to Fr. Arseny's devotion to God, by helping his fellow man.

He was thrown into an ice box at -22 F with a fellow prisoner, who was an atheist. They were left there for 48 hours. A person can die in 2 hrs in that condition. He started to pray and the room filled with light and two angels came to serve with him in his prayers. The other prisoner felt the prayers deep in his heart. And they were warmed by the prayers and the presence of God. The major came to take them out, after he heard that they were thrown in, without cause. Both of them were warm to the touch, but they were covered with frost. The other prisoner came to believe that God does exist, which is a big transformation for a hard core communist.

What I'm trying to say, in my feeble words, is that everybody has a chance to come to God, even if they are in a state of laxness. We don't know a person's soul. We can make a general observation, but let's not allow our thinking to pass over the line into judgement. Let's guard ourselves from judging.

If anyone is interested in reading this book, it's called:Father Arseny; Priest, Prisoner, Spiritual Father( St. Vladamir's Seminary Press, 2004).

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

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TomS
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Post by TomS »

joasia wrote:

If anyone is interested in reading this book, it's called:Father Arseny; Priest, Prisoner, Spiritual Father( St. Vladamir's Seminary Press, 2004).

You will find it in the Fiction section of the library.

----------------------------------------------------
They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."

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joasia
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Post by joasia »

CHRIST IS RISEN!

Tom,

Have you read the book??

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

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