What is the deal with G.O.C. churches in America having chairs? I have heard ROCOR has chairs and pews in some of its churches. The AA mission I currently attend does not have any pews but benches against the wall for old and sick people to sit on while everyone else stands. What I am wondering is why jurisdictions that have striven to maintain Tradition would allow such a slip? Are the congregations in these areas composed entirely of old people? It makes me wonder if in trying to maintain Tradition while maintain the flock has made a serious slip by let such a pernicious influence as chairs into the church. Why don't your bishops include this as part of their fight against Ecumenism and Modernism? I hope someone can explain this for me.
Chairs and Pews in Traditionalist Churches what is going on?
Moderator: Mark Templet
I have yet to go to a ROCOR church, anywhere, and find pews in the church. If you mean to call the benches along the walls pews well then maybe. As to chairs, many old and infirm people can't sit on the benches, they need the sturdier aspect of a chair. I pray that you will never need such a "convenience". But you really should beware of judging those who do need it.
Also, basing your judgments on hearsay and idle commentary is hardly very Orthodox. If you haven't seen it for yourself, then make a disparging comment such as above is unworthy of you.
Katya
<<<<<<<Teach the Love of Christ and not the hate of satan.>>>>>>>
I've visited a ROCOR parish with pews so thick you couldn't stand, but they switched to the OCA some years later after their priest reposed and ROCOR was unable to provide another that pleased them. So, there may be some truth to the rumour. It's certainly true that the G.O.C. has pews!
The fact is, it can be very difficult for bishops to excercise pastoral control in remote parishes that are strong willed. Efforts to bring these parishes back in line sometimes create strong reactions, and the OCA is happy to pick up new parishes.
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joasia
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CHRIST IS RISEN!
Sabbas,
I have heard ROCOR has chairs and pews in some of its churches.
I have been to a few ROCOR parishes and there are some chairs, but never pews. My church is mostly composed of older folks, who are regulars. But, the rest of us younger folks always stand. The rest of the younger folks only show up twice a year, and they definitely stand.
What I am wondering is why jurisdictions that have striven to maintain Tradition would allow such a slip?
It's more of a sit than a slip. By the way, the Tradition is referring to the faith and not the furniture. But, I agree, pews are a western influence. Chairs and side benches do not effect the faith. But, the appearance of pews seems to be a signature of a western spirituality. It forces people to sit when they should be standing in worship of God. A chair or bench can be ignored, but where will you stand when there are pews... in the aisle?
I've seen little portable folding seats in Jordanville. It's a matter of personal circumstance. We can't judge if a person sits, as long as they are standing during the most sacred parts. I've even seen the oldest memebers, in their 90's stand during these times.
Why don't your bishops include this as part of their fight against Ecumenism and Modernism?
Ecumenism and Modernism are causing the faithful from falling away from the truth. These are more serious subjects then what we sit on. And if I can take it a little further, the bishop has a chair to sit on in the altar and when he is present amongst the faithful, in the center of the church. It's not a matter of that he sits, but what he confesses.
Sabbas, you should be careful about focusing on the insignificant and worry about the spiritual conduct. Even if everyone stood for hours, if these people are ecumenists, then all their effort to stand will just give them a sore back.
Joshua Fraese,
I've visited a ROCOR parish with pews so thick you couldn't stand, but they switched to the OCA some years later after their priest reposed and ROCOR was unable to provide another that pleased them. So, there may be some truth to the rumour.
Which church was this?
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)
Also, basing your judgments on hearsay and idle commentary is hardly very Orthodox. If you haven't seen it for yourself, then make a disparging comment such as above is unworthy of you.
Katya
Ekaterina I am not basing it on hearsay. Fr.Lebedeff of ROCOR mentioned in an article he wrote that there are a few ROCOR churches with pews, lined up like in a RC or Protestant church. However my question was primarily for those in the G.O.C. and this is why. I was recently looking at the parish directy on the G.O.C. website http://www.thegreekorthodoxchurch.com/m ... parish_dir looking for a parish I could visit sometime this summer that is close. Well they have pictures of their churches and I noticed something: a few of them have rows of chairs like the rows of pews in a RC or Protestant church. Look at the picture for the churches of Holy Unmercenaries & St. Nectarios in Alsip, Illinois, Sts. Nectarios and George Church in Ecorse, Michigan, and St.Markella's Cathedral in Astoria. This is a big deal to me because I have been in churches with pews and you cannot properly worship with such things lined up in the nave. For one you cannot bow and touch the ground and prostrations are naturally impossible. I am not saying anything against chairs, benches, or even pews as long as they are against the wall.
Ecumenism and Modernism are causing the faithful from falling away from the truth. These are more serious subjects then what we sit on. And if I can take it a little further, the bishop has a chair to sit on in the altar and when he is present amongst the faithful, in the center of the church. It's not a matter of that he sits, but what he confesses.
Sabbas, you should be careful about focusing on the insignificant and worry about the spiritual conduct. Even if everyone stood for hours, if these people are ecumenists, then all their effort to stand will just give them a sore back.
But part of the fight against Modernism, the spirit of the age, is to fight its pernicious influences which include making spirituality more 'comfortable.' If the G.O.C. is supposed to be dedicated to that fight than they should include keeping chairs from being placed in neat rows.
The very reason why this bothers me is that it says a lot about peoples spiritual conduct. If they say they want to fight to maintain Church Tradition but don't mind sitting down during the Divine Liturgy when they could very well stand, then what is the point? You save the Church Calendar while leaving the backdoor open for other problems to enter.
I am not judging anyone nor did I intend to pick a fight I am just curious about why the G.O.C. allows rows of chairs in the nave when it is a liturgical impediment and fosters spiritual laxity. Joshua you are probably right about the parishes just being strong willed.
It's the end of the world!
Tell me, is your soul more pure when you stand?
You are probably right Tom of course according to you Traditionalists are all FREAKS. Yes I suppose we should just sit through the whole thing and have the priest come around to serve communion to us. That way we would not have to get up.
And tell me when did I mention the 'purity of the soul' in any of this? Is it Orthodox to heckle people for your own amusement because you don't like what they discuss? Is it Orthodox to make yourself feel better by making fun of others opinions?
Sabbas:
I am a traditionalist, in otherwords I like traditions, but I'm not a fanatic about it. I will admit that I am not comfortable in a church with pews..... we are after all creatures of habit. It has not been my habit to attend churches with pews, at least not since I was a child. Standing does not make you more holy. Taking pride in the stamina you have while standing during long services does more harm than good. A spiritual father of mine told me a long time ago that if your feet are bothering you to the point of distraction, sit down and remove the distraction and refocus on your prayer. Advice that I have followed most of my life. I'm sure there are people who judge me for it since I "seem" to the casual observer to be in good health, etc. You stand out of respect to God, but I'm sure that God will not condemn you for sitting every once and a while.
Katya