Can there be a joint Melkite-Orthodox parish?

[basil]

It's hard to see the line, but I pray by God's mercy I will. On one hand you want to live by the example of our holy monastic fathers who are obedient and do not contradict their hierarchs, it being better for one's salvation to humbly submit rather than contradict and question everything; however, on the other hand you want to defend the truth from those who would depart from it. So what do you do? I am unworthy to offer advice to anyone, and cannot place much confidence in my decision for myself either, but for now I feel impressed upon that it is better for me to stay in the Antiochian Archdiocese trying to labor humbly for Christ.

Basil

[Joseph]

Some people are always drawing a new line...staying one step ahead of the heresy.

Wasn't the only line that matters drawn with the public preaching of heresy? What other line does the Church teach us to draw?

[joasia]

Joseph B,

Some people are always drawing a new line...staying one step ahead of the heresy.

Wasn't the only line that matters drawn with the public preaching of heresy? What other line does the Church teach us to draw?

I agree. The line is ...to be heretical, or not to be heretical, that is the question. The drawing of the line I talk about, is more of waiting and seeing who will commit to the one side or the other. The game may stay the same, but perhaps the players will change. We are at a pinnacle stage of decision...don't you feel it? We have to give the chance of hierarchs to repent. Like I said in another post, they are of flesh and blood and therefore as sinners, God gives them the chance to repent, just like us laity. But, their repentance will be of a greater victory, because it will affect their decision for the church. Just as their sin will be of greater destruction to their soul, if they don't repent.

The hierarchs have a greater judgement to face then us simple laity.

[basil]

Our hierarchs are to be pitied for being in their unenviable position. How would you like to be a bishop of these times?

What if the majority of Orthodoxy adopts a heterodox doctrine for a few decades as has been the case in our history. Do we call a redo on all sacraments performed during that period? Do we all make lines around us everytime a hierarch is corrupt? The Church is still the Church, but what will become of those misguided hierarchs?

Basil

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Our hierarchs are to be pitied for being in their unenviable position. How would you like to be a bishop of these times?

Please don't cast them as the innocent victims. The Church calls them wolves and wolves they are. I pity them, but only out of a sense of what we will see of them in the next life and not this one.

What if the majority of Orthodoxy adopts a heterodox doctrine for a few decades as has been the case in our history. Do we call a redo on all sacraments performed during that period? Do we all make lines around us everytime a hierarch is corrupt? The Church is still the Church, but what will become of those misguided hierarchs?

"Orthodoxy adopts a heretic doctrine" - what exactly does this mean? Could it be then that the Latins are actually Orthodox with a heretic doctrine? Were does thinking such as this come from? What if a car thief "borrowed" your car, would you call the police or tell yourself, "well, he may come back". No you would not - you would call the police immediatly. So we see people are very willing to throw their spiritual pearls away to the swine but never for a moment would they think to do so with their earthly pearls.

But according to history you do ordain the heretic priests as we see with the Iconoclasts and the Aresenites. But what if the "majority" never returns as has also happened, and what if your children are more reluctant than you to leave the enemies of Christ?

The Holy Fathers of the Church leave no quarter for un-orthodox thinking such as this. "All the teachers of the Church, all the Councils, and all the Divine Scriptures, exhort us to flee those who uphold other doctrines and to separate from communion with them." (Confession of Faith, XIII, 304 Saint Mark of Ephesus); and how would someone dare to add some thought of their own to contradict this? But indeed we see today people concocting a thousand and one excuses for themselves, and why? Maybe because they are afraid they might be cast out of the presence of the majority who have the big and stately temples, because they love “the glory of men more than the glory of God” (John 12:42—43)?

But I don't know why. I just know they are following Christ's enemies at every turn, always ready with the excuses; but where are the excuses for Christ who suffered death for them? They don't realize they are just making excuses to turn their backs on the One Who loves them.

[Sabbas]

I would just like to say that I find myself in a predicament like Nektarios only slightly worse. I am currently a catechumen in the Antiochian Archdiocese and am beginning to think I really should get a life boat because I feel like I am sinking. I am always shocked when hear about these things. I came to Orthodoxy for Truth and yet now I find myself in a the middle of this.
Where are the Mysteries? Is all of world Orthodoxy Graceless? I have been reading some of the Metropolitan Cyprian of the Greek Synod in Resistance's ecclesiology and it makes sense to me because I cannot see how all of world Orthodoxy could be completely without Grace. There is a Greek Synod in Resistance church about an hour and a half from where I live but I have heard the priest is a bit difficult to get along with and therefore I have not visited the church yet.
What I would like to know is if the Genuine Orthodox Church is saying world Orthodoxy is Graceless? Has enough time really elapsed? So was Elder Cleopa of Sihastria a heretic for promoting the New Calendar? Has God left every pious Orthodox who out of fear and hope stays where they are without the Mysteries. I mean Ecumenism is a heresy but I am not convinced that world Orthodoxy is just as far from genuine Orthodoxy as Roman Catholicism is from genuine Orthodoxy.
I am very confused and want to be a member of Jesus Christ's Body!

[basil]

"Could it be then that the Latins are actually Orthodox with a heretic doctrine? Were does thinking such as this come from? What if a car thief "borrowed" your car, would you call the police or tell yourself, "well, he may come back". No you would not - you would call the police immediatly. So we see people are very willing to throw their spiritual pearls away to the swine but never for a moment would they think to do so with their earthly pearls."

The Latin church has been declared anathema by the Church, which is much different than the juridictional squabling we have in Orthodoxy at times. Has this officially been done by any of the traditional jurisdictions towards the Antiochian or Greek Archdioceses? Maybe, but not by ROCOR, which is the only traditional jurisdiction of which I have any knowledge.

Does the light of God's presence shift from a bishopric as soon as someone with heterodox ideas is enthroned, leaving those under him without grace? Then if a worthy successor is chosen does the light of God's countenance return? Must we as Christ's sheep jump fences looking for a worthy bishop? I am no authority, but how could this be? If an entire jurisdiction falls into serious error when does grace leave? Are Christ's flock safe until such time as the Church declares anathema against this jurisdiction and declares it to be in schism? These are questions for which I honestly have no answer.

I want to approach any decision with caution, not because I value man's opinion, but because if a spirit of division overtakes me, am I not then truly torn from Christ's hand and fold? Christ's patience and mercy are unending, but my patience for the folly of my hierarchs is short.

Why did throngs of holy monastics take up life in the desert after the end of the persecutions? Did they begin to see a laxity and carelessness in the faith of many in the cities? Surely there were innumerable challenges at that time, but did schism occur? Not that I'm aware of, it seems that the holy men and women, chosen by God left the cities to seek the angelic life, and by doing so fed the Church with the fruit of their labors in what must have been a very challenging time of transition. I see our current struggle the product of growing pains, a wider presence of Orthodoxy in the west, and an indication of our time.

Sabbas, I have been in the Antiochian Archdiocese for 10 years this Holy Saturday, and although I dislike some clearly modernist actions of the jurisdiction I do not doubt their grace. It is good to be aware of these problems so you are not personally swept away by them, but the most important thing for you to do now is try to gain the mind of the Church, that is to say the mind of Christ. If you are coming from a heterodox Chrisitan background you will see that it takes time to change your thoughts and heart from your former error to Orthodoxy. My advice as a laymen, who really has nothing to offer as credentials, is to learn to be obedient to Christ, not getting swept up in these politics. They have stolen the faith of many, I'm afraid. If it is in your power consider a ROCOR parish now before you are received, but if there is not one in your area, proceed with your catecumenate in the Antiochian parish you attend. This is my opinion, but pray and seek the advice of wiser men. I can't take reponsibility for leading anyone, but if this advice resonates with you take it.

Basil