A comment on some recent threads..

[joasia]

Tom,

If the hierarchy were clear, then there would be no confused discussions about it here. Since there are such discussions(here), it goes without saying, that they(the hierarchy) are not clear with their statements.

Any rebuttals?

[Justin Kissel]

Milla,

I'm genuinely confused. Sometimes this whole mess is referred to as unification and sometimes it's refered to as con-celebration. I wish that some one (who knows for sure) would clarify this one point.

I don't claim to know for certain, but I think it's concelebration first, then unification later. The whole goal is one Russian Church, so obviously unification is eventually what we want to arrive at... but I don't think concelebration is going to be a short stop along the way. More likely it will be a time where we can observe the MP up close, and they can observe us. But once we do unite (2 years or 20 years from now), ROCOR might or might not have some degree of autonomy under the MP--who knows but God? Again, I do not say that I know for certain, this is just what I've gathered from talking to people, reading, etc. To be quite honest, I think the whole thing is going to fall through this go around, the MP's words and actions plainly tell us that they are not ready to agree to what we (ROCOR) are asking (they have not moved far enough on any of the main stumbling blocks, from what I can see). Perhaps ten years from now... perhaps by that time, by the Grace of God, the Serbs will be out of the WCC as well! ...but again, who knows but God?

[Justin Kissel]

At Nyack, Protopresbyter Valery Lukianov said this:

Concurrently, a conciliar choice on the merging of both parts of the Russian Church must be carried out by a Local Church Council in Russia. Before that time, preparatory work can he carried out for the attainment of oneness of mind by the two parts of the Church of Russia. If both parts of the Church, separate at the present time, approach true oneness of mind with a conciliar will, the path to mutual eucharistic celebration will then be opened. But such concelebration must be preceded by the repentance of the whole people, by fasting and prayer in Russia and in the Diaspora. Thus will the Church of Russia arise to a renewed life, cleansed by tears of repentance, standing on the firm rock of the Truth of the Orthodox, Apostolic Faith. - Source

In other words, things will progress in this order (and do things ever progress rapidly in Orthodoxy?):

1) Repentance and ascertaining oneness of mind
2) Concelebration (communion)
3) An All-Russian Council
4) One united Russian Church (union)

[TomS]

Tom,

If the hierarchy were clear, then there would be no confused discussions about it here. Since there are such discussions(here), it goes without saying, that they(the hierarchy) are not clear with their statements.

Any rebuttals?

Wrong. You know good and well what is happening - you just don't want to accept it. ROCOR will re-enter communion with the MP, it's a done deal.

[Justin Kissel]

Tom,

Have you read what the members of the MP have actually been saying? For an example (and by no means the only example), here's an interview with an MP participant at Nyack. In this interview he dismisses pretty much everyone (it seems) who disagrees with his position on Met. Sergius. He calls those who disagree "cruel," askers of "vapid questions," people who "could offer nothing better than traditional incantations," and even people who have a "Soviet spirit"! This type of talk is certainly not going to help heal any wounds. I agree with you that communion is inevitable, but I don't think it will be happening quickly, there are too many people who are not ready on both sides.

[TomS]

I agree with you that communion is inevitable, but I don't think it will be happening quickly, ...

I also am not saying that it will happen quickly. But "quickly" is a realtive term.

I think that it will probably happen within 5 years.

[Ekaterina]

Tom:

I believe you are wrong in this instance. The mess is about as clear as brackish water on a foggy day.

Personally, I think that our bishops need to get out to the various parishes and let the prople know what they are doing and most of all why. They need to stop and listen to our concerns too. Although I do think that the more rabid nay sayers would not allow a reasoned discussion to take place. This has happened in a few cases already.

Katya