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Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

The problem is that too many of these people judge

Woh buddy, you just had a major pot/kettle moment there. :)

Saint Theophan might have known more about Protestantism than you and I combined. Leastwise, it wasn't a subject he was unfamiliar with. Your remark reminds me of when people say "yeah, but I can't trust what the Church says about X because of Y". The question is whether St. Theophan was articulating the Orthodox position, or giving a personal opinion which might (if he was bold) be open to Tom's criticisms.

As I tried (;) lol) to say on another forum, it is hard for people like me to watch this happening, because we have already had a "crisis of faith" and come out on the other side believing 100% in exactly the thing you are now criticizing. I realise you don't see yourself as criticising Orthodoxy, but corruptions; we, on the other hand, can't agree with you on that. I also realise that not everyone is suppose "just fall in line" all the time (thinking that people had to do that is the reason that almost all the Fools for Christ were ridiculed and mocked in their lifetimes). Nonetheless, many of us think you are going down the wrong path, so having said a word about how I'm trying to understand where you're coming from, let me say a word about what I don't understand. What is your foundation? You would say Christ, obviously... but how do you determine when to believe something or not? I know you are sincere, but sincerity might not be enough.

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TomS
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Post by TomS »

Justin Kissel wrote:

... but how do you determine when to believe something or not? I know you are sincere, but sincerity might not be enough.

To me, it is not an issue of whether I believe something or not - it is more of an issue of whether I should HAVE to believe something in order to be considered "Orthodox enough" for others.

As I have stated in the past -- based upon my readings of Church history and discussion with Priests and other Orthodox, certain "traditions" in the Church were created to address a specific time and social condition. And those traditions are no longer applicable in this day and age.

As I heard on Priest say -- "We are not Muslims. Our Church should not be STUCK in the past. And if we STAY in the past then we are saying that our God is dead and is no longer with us."

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They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Tom,

The issue is not whether you are Orthodox enough for us, the issue is discernment and obedience. It's not the unforgivable sin to question and worry... but man, you better be right if you go public with your criticisms (especially if others take them to heart). You have to know when to say something and when not to, and sometimes you have to not speak up even when you believe something is wrong. Truth is absolute, but we are not all called to be the truth police, and those who are--whether it is a burden given to them by God, or they take it upon themselves--and speak out publically with their ideas, will have a much rougher judgment.

Last edited by Justin Kissel on Mon 25 October 2004 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aristokles
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Post by Aristokles »

TomS wrote:

And btw, let's not forget that YOU, as a member of the GOA, are not considered "part of the Church" by some of your fellow Orthodox.

Nice try, friend. Doesn't work on me - you know that :lol:

Demetri

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Post by TomS »

Aristokles wrote:
TomS wrote:

And btw, let's not forget that YOU, as a member of the GOA, are not considered "part of the Church" by some of your fellow Orthodox.

Nice try, friend. Doesn't work on me - you know that :lol:

Demetri

Huh? I was not "trying" anything. I was using that as an example that even though you consider yourself Orthodox, there are other Orthodox who feel that you still "aren't Orthodox enough". That unless you belong to their little corner of Orthodoxy, that you are still lost.

You should not ALLOW others to label you and determine your status in relation to your salvation.

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Aristokles
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Post by Aristokles »

TomS wrote:
Aristokles wrote:
TomS wrote:

And btw, let's not forget that YOU, as a member of the GOA, are not considered "part of the Church" by some of your fellow Orthodox.

Nice try, friend. Doesn't work on me - you know that :lol:

Demetri

Huh? I was not "trying" anything. I was using that as an example that even though you consider yourself Orthodox, there are other Orthodox who feel that you still "aren't Orthodox enough". That unless you belong to their little corner of Orthodoxy, that you are still lost.

You should not ALLOW others to label you and determine your status in relation to your salvation.

There goes "Doubtful Tom" expounding how someone else is to act or react . You most certainly are "trying' to deflect by this ruse. Anyway, I am not the one making a spectacle of my faith (or lack thereof) on a public forum. You want arguments? Go to the St Andrews House Forum where the 'activists' hang out. And be prepared to engage priests and bishops. :P

Demetri

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Post by TomS »

Aristokles wrote:

There goes "Doubtful Tom" expounding how someone else is to act or react . You most certainly are "trying' to deflect by this ruse.

Deflect? Deflect what? Do you think I would keep on posting if criticism of my opinions by others bothered me? You deflect something when you feel it could hurt you, I do not have that fear.

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They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."

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