Moderator: Mark Templet
Are we forgetting the rest ? St. John 4: (23)" But {the hour is coming} and{ is now here}, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. For the Father also seeks such to worship Him.(24) God is spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
The response to verse St. John 4: 21 is 23 & 24.
james
Jakub wrote:The response to verse St. John 4: 21 is 23 & 24.
And?.... I don't see how those verses modify what was said in the previous verse. He is still saying that God is not contained in a physical place.
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They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."
If you're looking for a thoughtful alternate exegesis of the passage, Tom, might I suggest you contact a few priests? Or, I believe you've read Eusebius? perhaps going back over his Ecclestiastical History would be helpful, as he wonderfully handles (though doesn't explicitly state) how the Church can be "in us" and still be visible and present in a particular place, see, bishop, etc. One of the things that struck me about Eusebius was how many ecclesiological "gems" (ie. great quotes) were to be found in him, when all I was expected was simple history. 
TomS wrote:He is still saying that God is not contained in a physical place.
Hmmmm... I don't think He is saying this exactly.
Liturgically, we invoke God as He "Who art everywhere present, and fillest all things." If God can fill a vessel, surely we can say that vessel "contains God."
God is Uncircumscribable, yet was circumscribed in the womb of the Theotokos. The Fullness of the Divine and Human Natures of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity were contained in the womb of the All-Holy Virgin (which is a physical space).
Similarly, yes, we worship "in spirit and truth", but spirits operate through a body. Since the Incarnation, God has revealed that the plan of salvation includes both flesh and spirit- "God became Man that Man may become God". If we are Christians- then where is the Body of Christ containing the Spirit and Truth in which we worship?- You'll find the answer to this throughout the New Testament- the Body of Christ is the Church.
George Australia wrote:If we are Christians- then where is the Body of Christ containing the Spirit and Truth in which we worship?- You'll find the answer to this throughout the New Testament- the Body of Christ is the Church.
I agree 100% - and and that exists in ALL professing Christians.
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They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."
TomS wrote:George Australia wrote:If we are Christians- then where is the Body of Christ containing the Spirit and Truth in which we worship?- You'll find the answer to this throughout the New Testament- the Body of Christ is the Church.
I agree 100% - and and that exists in ALL professing Christians.
"I agree" is a subjective statement.
"and that exists in ALL professing Christians" sounds a bit like an objective, absolute truth. I don't agree with this statement.
None of this is reconcilable with the statement:
TomS wrote:"The answer is that the Church and God is INSIDE you; it is not external."
TomS,
The Chruch of Christ is within us...but isn't that referring to when we take Holy Communion? The Body and Blood of Christ? And in the first centuries, the people knew that it was imperitive to participate of this Great Communion, because it was a physical connection with God.
But, how many people take Holy Communion everyday, in these days? The innvocation of the Holy Spirit to descend on the Chalice can only be done by priests, hence in a place of gathering, the Church, so that many can participate.
You can worship 12 hours a day, for yourself, but that will not give you the Body and Blood of Christ and the worshipping will not grant the Church within you.
The Church is Christ and the participation of Holy Communion is the union of our souls with Christ's Holy Body and Blood.
The question is....where does the Holy Spirit descend to transform the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ?
This is what we are all questioning. Is the Holy Spirit with a particular Church diocese? The Holy Spirit is not with the jews, papists or protestants. Which division of Orthodoxy is the Holy Spirit with, or is He wilth all the divisions?
He may work miracles with individuals in the world, but where does the Holy Spirit descend? That IS the big question.
Joanna
