My pet peeves

Discuss the holy Mysteries and the liturgical life of the Church such as the Hours, Vespers, Matins/Orthros, Typica, and the Divine Liturgy. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


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Logos
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Post by Logos »

Using your logic, why should we repent when we are only going to fall again? Why should I stop swearing and use God's name in vain when chances are it will slip out? I mean the only time we stop sinning is when we are dead.

We shouldn't be obsessed with rules and regulations???? Tell that to the many members of ROCOR, ROCA, and other Old Calenderist churches. There are many who would disagree with that. I frankly agree with Julianna on this whole matter. It is because we get away from 'rules and regulations' that creates problems with modesty.

As for not being our brother's keeper, was this question not asked in the Bible by Cain? What is Orthodox opinion of this? It seems that many of the saints were concerned as to not make others fall into sin. To say it does not matter what you wear because in the end a man will look no matter what, is garbage.

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

It is our job to draw people to Christ, not chase them away.

I'm sorry, I thought the Bible told us to be modest. It occurs to me that many might be drawn by our modesty, or at least attempts at leading a Christian life. You're saying chuck all this Bible stuff ("worrying about rules and regulations") and just try to be seeker friendly?

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Liudmilla
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Post by Liudmilla »

Logos said:
Using your logic, why should we repent when we are only going to fall again? Why should I stop swearing and use God's name in vain when chances are it will slip out? I mean the only time we stop sinning is when we are dead.

You misunderstand my meaning. What I was trying to say is that we need to struggle within and with our selves. We are the only ones truly responsible for our sins. We can

Logos
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Post by Logos »

Paradosis wrote:

I'm sorry, I thought the Bible told us to be modest. It occurs to me that many might be drawn by our modesty, or at least attempts at leading a Christian life. You're saying chuck all this Bible stuff ("worrying about rules and regulations") and just try to be seeker friendly?

Thinking this thing through for awhile, I think the term modesty means different things to different people, and that is where the problem lies. Some people think that there is nothing immodest about a woman sunbathing topless, this type of thought occurs in Europe and other places in the world.

As for seeker friendly churches, I don't think they bring anymore people than a strict church does. I think when most people are looking for a church they are looking for a place that will be a meaningful, holy place. In other words, people want a place where they can build a relationship with God.

bogoliubtsy
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Post by bogoliubtsy »

XB!

LIUDMILLA,
I agree with what you've written in regards to modesty of women's dress and its relation to the weak will of a man. No matter how a woman is dressed(possible with the exception of dress for fundamentalist islamic women), there will always be the possibility of a lusty man finding something stimulating about it. Women are not solely responsible for the lust of men.

I happen to know some Hare Krishnas(a branch of hinduism). In the Hare Krishna temples women stand in the back during the service, and the men stand in front. Women almost always have their heads covered. Women are looked at as obstacles who might set men off the spiritual path by many men and are therefore avoided by many of the men(mostly the men living in these temples as their version of a "monk"). Women don't eat with the men at meal time, or sit next to men on car rides.
However, this "strict" adherence to gender segregation for the sake of fostering piety and cutting down on men's lusty impulses is a manifestation of a warped view of women, human sexuality, and a sign of a DEEP problem within the men. If you really get to know some of these men, the way they talk about women and relate to women becomes a kind of fixation for them...and it becomes abundently obvious in a short time that these men are lusty, lusty people! So who, in this case, should change? Should the women be completely hidden from view? Or should the men work on their lust and straighten out their sickness?

Back to Orthodoxy:
We're not talking about girls wearing mini-skirts and low cut spagetti strap tank tops to church here. That's something entirely different. But if a women comes to church modestly dressed wearing a skirt, not too tight of a shirt, etc. what's the problem?
I feel like I'm hearing watered down versions of arguments here that rapists use.
"Well, she was dressed so seductively, she was asking for it". etc.
That's ridiculous. A girl friend of mine was walking down a street in Boston a few years back wearing a hooded sweatshirt(with the hood up mind you and baggy jeans. Still she was hollered at by some construction workers. Who's at fault here?
Let's be reasonable. Let's look for the internal and deeprooted spiritual problems and not focus entirely on the external here.

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

LIUDMILLA

I apologize, I'm sorry that I made the statement that I did. I of course realised even then that that wasn't what you were saying. It was dumb of me to post.

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Liudmilla
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Post by Liudmilla »

Apology accepted and forgiven.....:D

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