My pet peeves

Mary Kissel · Post by **Mary Kissel** » Thu 27 March 2003 2:12 pm

I agree both men and women need to dress modestly and raise our children to dress modestly in Church, and even outside Church, even outside Church we are an example to others, right? I know we shouldnt judge others, but it does happen a lot... and we shouldnt be the cause of someone falling in or outside of Church, they should be able to see God in us and not have lustful thoughts about us (men or women). Someone once said " The Liturgy begins when we walk out the Church's door on Sunday morning". Liturgy is the work of the people, for the Orthodox our work doesn't end after Divine Liturgy on Sunday morning but it is when we walk out the door that our true work begins. The Divine Liturgy is the hospital, but once we leave the hospital that is when we truly start working among the sick.

MaryCecilia

ania · Post by **ania** » Fri 2 May 2003 11:51 am

Hi Everybody!
Man... I've got a lot to say on this one. First off, I'd like to say, that people should keep their eyes either on what's going on in the front of the church or closed in freverent prayer, rather than judging how modest the people around them are (example long skirt, longsleeved shirt, scarf, socks & sandles being a 10, while short skirt, short sleaves, opened-toed heals & no skarf a 1).
I'm probably never gonna dress up like the Amish, sorry just not gonna happen. I, personally, do like shopping at Bloomies, Gap, etc, though finances often cause me to go to bargin basements.
The whole thing that started this, prostrations... The woman is responsible for the length, & if she knows that there will be prostrations, no question she should wear a longer skirt. However, why anyone would be looking at how other people are doing prostrations while they themselves should be doing prostrations at the same time, is anyone's guess.
As far as how "sexy" people look in church, etc, I've heard seminarians say, "oh my gosh, the girl is so cute & pretty in that scarf," and I know lots of girls who think some seminarians are pretty dang hot in their cassocks, and those are DEFINATELY not tight. I've seen little old ladies who no-one would every say are anything less than pious, flirt with my dad, and later tell my mum how lucky she is to have such a handsome priest for a husband, and he's defiantly not clean shaven, nor does he have a crew cut, anything but, his hair is halfway to his waist.
I'm not saying people should dress like the models in the Guess Catologe (I was looking at one yesterday at the mall, YUCK), like their about their about to go into the redlight district of Paris (been there too, scary) but as long as the clothes aren't tight, or to short & they look nice(meaning neat in appearance), I'd say it's alright.
And as far as fashion... God gave me a fashion sence, why on earth wouldn't I use it then??? Make-up doesn't bother me much either, if it's a little bit, and tasteful. I can't wear any anyway, because I get chemical burn, but I doesn't bother me as long as they don't look like their about to go on stage at the Moulin Rouge. My basic point to this tirade is, people are going to look, no mater how modest you can try to be, it's in their nature. They gotta try not to, but I could wear a potato sack to church, & someone would still check me out.
Ok, that's my shpile for today. Sorry if it's a bit liberal for some people, but as Popeye once said "I Yam What I Yam."
Toodles,
Ania

Justin Kissel · Post by **Justin Kissel** » Fri 2 May 2003 11:56 am

Here's my basic position, and this isn't said in reference to, against, or for, anything stated previously.

If someone is going to sin (e.g., lust) because of attrativeness (and no one denies that some people are beautiful, attractive, etc., no one denies this), it should be because of the one falling. In other words, we all have an obligation to dress in such as way so that, if a person does stumble into sin, it is not due to our own actions/dress, but solely because of the other person. Of course many people can and do fall, and we can't prevent 100% people falling or lusting and so forth; however, when it does happen, we need to make sure it isn't happening because of our own actions/dress. If a person sins, it is their own sin: we are not at fault for their sin: so we couldn't say, for example if someone gets raped, that "they deserved it". A sinner's sin is always their own to account for. However, if we have a part in helping them sin, then we have a seperate sin to account for: negligence, causing someone to stumble, and perhaps more.

Straw man

Logos · Post by **Logos** » Fri 2 May 2003 1:18 pm

Paradosis wrote:
If someone is going to sin (e.g., lust) because of attrativeness (and no one denies that some people are beautiful, attractive, etc., no one denies this), it should be because of the one falling. In other words, we all have an obligation to dress in such as way so that, if a person does stumble into sin, it is not due to our own actions/dress, but solely because of the other person. Of course many people can and do fall, and we can't prevent 100% people falling or lusting and so forth; however, when it does happen, we need to make sure it isn't happening because of our own actions/dress. If a person sins, it is their own sin: we are not at fault for their sin: so we couldn't say, for example if someone gets raped, that "they deserved it". A sinner's sin is always their own to account for. However, if we have a part in helping them sin, then we have a seperate sin to account for: negligence, causing someone to stumble, and perhaps more.

Straw man

I agree with what you have said there. Unfortunately, there are so many who just don't get it.

Julianna · Post by **Julianna** » Sat 3 May 2003 9:08 pm

If women stand on the north side of the church like they should, if women properly clothe themselves, if men stand on the south side like they should, if men properly clothe themselves, there is less likely to be a problem. The problem is in the catechesis of many I think.

Mary Kissel · Post by **Mary Kissel** » Sat 3 May 2003 10:22 pm

Julianna, I agree with what you said, I agree that it would probably be best to do things in Church that way, also we should dress modestly so that if a person does fall into sin, we aren't the ones responsible for their falling, as Paradosis said earlier.

In Christ,
MaryCecilia

Liudmilla · Post by **Liudmilla** » Sun 4 May 2003 4:07 pm

I keep reading this recurrent theme, in this and other threads, and truthfully it bothers me a lot. The question seems to certer on the modesty of women and the lustfulness of men. Ladies, it wouldn't matter if you dressed yourselves in gunny sacks...men would still look, and you would still be found wanting. Either the shape of the gunny sack was wrong, or you still managed to be too alluring in that gunny sack. I, for one, have no desire to dress in a burka or what ever that Islamic veil is called. Nor have I a desire to live segregated in a harem. The truth of the matter is that men will always find something to admire...as my brother-in-law says he's not dead, he's a man and he's got eyes...it could be the scarf you wear, the clothes you don, the curve of your elbow...etc. You could spend your life bending over backwards trying to be as modest as you can, but ultimately you ARE NOT YOUR BROTHER'S KEEPER! You can not stop him from looking, you can not stop him from obsessing, you can not stop his lustful thoughts. The only one who can is HE HIMSELF.

While the laws of the church should be kept, there are times when it won't happen, deal with it and move on.... Obsessing with rules and regulations is NOT going to save your souls. Prayer, fasting and abstinense will, but not rules and regulations. If you are obsessing about something then you need more sessions with your spiritual father, you aren't being open enough with him. Don't forget that Christ came for the sinner and not the "perfect ones". If you are judging those around you because they are making you "sin", then you definitely need help from your spiriual father. If by your attitude you are making it impossible for that sinner to come to church, then you are guilty of an even greater sin. Your Christian charity, kindness and understanding would be of greater use than your condemnation.

The problem is never around us, the problem is WITHIN OURSELVES, and the solution is in how we choose to approach it. We can either blame others, or we can acknowledge our weakness and strive to conquer it.

I have seen too many people chased away from coming to church, because people have been judgemental, condemning, and stuck-up in their piety. It is our job to draw people to Christ, not chase them away. And it is our duty to deal with our own weaknesses and not blame others for them.