Waldemar asks, What if St. Ambrose is still sticking around?

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Waldemar
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Post by Waldemar »

I think that Seraphim gave a far better answer than I could have given, so I'll not try to add to it.

Agreed. I will not add to it but only reproduce his words here:

It is not right to judge anyone, even if you have seen someone sinning and wallowing in the violations of God’s laws with your own eyes, as is said in the word of God: "Judge not, that ye be not judged" (Mt. 7:1). "Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand" (Rom. 14:4). It is much better always to bring to memory the words of the apostle: "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (1 Cor. 10:12).

Why do we judge our neighbors? Because we are not trying to get to know ourselves. Someone busy trying to understand himself has no time to notice the shortcomings of others. Judge yourself — and you will stop judging others. Judge a poor deed, but do not judge the doer. It is necessary to consider yourself the most sinful of all, and to forgive your neighbor every poor deed. One must hate only the devil, who tempted him. It can happen that someone might appear to be doing something bad to us, but in reality, because of the doer's good intentions, it is a good deed. Besides, the door of penitence is always open, and it is not known who will enter it sooner — you, "the judge," or the one judged by you.

Waldemar
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Post by Waldemar »

But where are you now, Holy Rus'? Do you no longer exist? The throne of Saint Vladimir has fallen, holy things have been desecrated, churches are destroyed. Has the God-bearing nation become a beast? Has the red dragon devoured Holy Rus'? How has a land of spiritual heroism become the site of infamous crimes? How is it that where saints once sought salvation now bandits rule? Is it possible that Holy Rus' is no more and will never again exist, or perhaps that it never did exist, that it merely wore a veil of holiness, which has now fallen once and for all?

No! Holy Rus' is not a mirage or an illusion, but a true reality! In heaven there is no end to the offering of incense which is the prayers of the saints who have shone forth in the Russian land and who now pray for it before the throne of God. Yet Holy Rus' exists not only in heaven; it continues to exist even here on the sinful earth. The rule of God's enemies has but enslaved it, not destroyed it. The council of the ungodly which has taken over the Russian nation is alien to it, having nothing in common with the essence of Russia. An alien international force, calling itself "the International," has imposed its yoke on Russia, but remains her enemy. Those of them who formerly called themselves Russians, because they were of Russian blood, have forfeited the name of Russian, because they have become alien to the spirit of Rus'. Of such it may be said, They went out from us, but they were not of us (John 2:19). They have fallen away from the Russian nation, having become oppressors of Rus'. By rejecting God they have also rejected man's likeness to God, and have surpassed the wild beasts in their ferocious cruelty.

But Rus' remains holy. The choir of the Apostles was not diminished when Judas fell away from it; the radiance of the angelic ranks was not dimmed when Satan fell away from them, together with those angels who listened to him.

Just as it happened that the devil came from the ranks of the angels, but after the fall of Lucifer and his adherents the rest of the angels were inflamed with an even greater love for God and shone even more brightly in heaven, so also the godless came from among the Russian people, but their defection made the holiness of Rus' more apparent and caused it to be glorified in heaven and throughout all the earth.

An innumerable multitude of new martyrs have borne witness to their loyalty to Christ. The entire Russian nation has endured with indescribable patience such sufferings as no other nation on earth has yet experienced, and has furnished an incalculable multitude of new testimonies to its steadfastness in faith. In spite of the crudest persecution the Church remains unconquered. Numerous churches have been destroyed, so that in many cities which were once adorned with majestic churches not a single one of them is left; yet believers gather in secret to pray to the Lord God. Russia has met the age of the catacombs, which it never knew before, because it had never before experienced persecution for the faith.

In the great choir of saints who were pleasing to God and were glorified in Rus' there were many holy hierarchs, monks, righteous men and women, and fools for Christ's sake, but in all of its preceding history there were only a few martyrs in the Russian land. The "radiant army of martyrs," whose blood was the seed of Christianity throughout the world, and which is glorified almost every day by the earthly Church, was practically nonexistent in the heavenly Russian Church. The time came to fill up its ranks. Now an inestimable number of new martyrs and sufferers has been added to the small number of passion-bearers and martyrs who suffered in ages past. Among them is the Tsar, wearing his crown, the descendant and heir of the baptizer of Rus', along with his whole family, as well as that namesake of the baptizer of Rus' who was the chief hierarch of the city of the baptism, and also bishops, princes, noblemen, soldiers, priests, monks, the learned and the illiterate, city dwellers and country folk, the famous and the ordinary. Every age, every class, every corner of Rus' has produced new martyrs. All Rus' has been flooded by martyrs' blood and sanctified thereby.

O wonderful and glorious army of new martyrs! Who can worthily proclaim your glory? Truly, "blessed is the land which has been watered with your blood, and holy are the places which have received your bodies."

Blessed are you, O Russian land, purified by the fire of suffering! You have passed through the water of baptism; now you are passing through the fire of suffering, and you will enter also into your rest. Once Christians would reverently gather the sand of the Coliseum, soaked with the blood of the martyrs. The places where the martyrs suffered and died were regarded as sacred and worthy of special honor. But now all Rus' is the ground where the martyrs contested. Its soil has been hallowed by their blood, its air by their souls' ascent to heaven. Truly sacred are you, O Rus'! That writer of old was right in saying that you are the third Rome, and there will be no fourth. You have surpassed ancient Rome in the multitude of your martyrs' exploits; by your firmness in the Orthodox faith, you have outshone even that Rome which baptized you, and you will remain unsurpassed till the end of the world. Only that land which was made holy by the earthly life and sufferings of the God-Man is holier than you in the eyes of Orthodox people.

Sons of Russia, shake off the sleep of sloth and despondency! Gaze upon the glory of Russia's sufferings and cleanse yourselves, wash yourselves from your sins! Strengthen yourselves in the Orthodox faith, that you may be worthy to abide in the dwelling place of the Lord and to take up your abode in His holy mountain. Awake, awake, arise, O Rus', who have drunk from the Lord's hand the chalice of His anger! When your sufferings come to an end, your righteousness will be with you and the glory of the Lord will accompany you. Nations will come to your light and kings to the radiance rising over you. In that day, lift up your eyes round about you and behold, for your children will come to you from the west and the north, from the south and the east, blessing Christ in you unto the ages.

St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco

'950-Year Anniversary of the Baptism of Rus’

Waldemar
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Post by Waldemar »

It was an attempt to work through something to its logical conclusion.

This so-called "logical conclusion" is all over these boards. I have rejected it. I will cleave unto the teaching of St. John of Shanghai of San Francisco.

Some thing is attempting work through these boards in order to move its participants towards a diabolical conclusion. I reject this thing.

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Waldemar,

I feel you are unwillingly to have a simple discussion with simple questions and answers, but it seems you would prefer to dance around like a boxer in a ring laying out vague qoutes and making broad generalizations (Pardon the expression). These are very easy tactics which are neither honest or productive.

Very well. One's own conscience is a terrible thing to face, it is of course natural to avoid questions which demonstrate a derelict theology and faith.

But if I am wrong, then perhaps we can start over with an example of tradition were the "Holy Heretic" formula was clearly taught. I look forward to your example so that I can be shown the truth.

Waldemar
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Post by Waldemar »

it seems you would prefer to dance around like a boxer

I think it would be more accurate to say that I would prefer to be to dance around with the "fella that brung me." In the matter of the subject at hand, this fella would be St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco.

One's own conscience is a terrible thing to face

Facing my own conscience in this matter is less terrible than you seem to imagine, for

I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
1 Corinthians 4:3

This same conscience of mine ("seared" or perhaps medium-rare, but hopefully not yet completely burned through by hellfire) warns me:

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Titus 1:15

Waldemar
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Joined: Wed 1 October 2003 9:06 pm

Post by Waldemar »

OOD et al.,

I notice that you guys use "simple" or "simply" a lot to describe your methods for coming to the truth of this matter.

Perhaps my level of simplicity is simply lower than yours. That would explain our failure to communicate.

My simple mind cannot grasp how you laypeople can judge the judgement that belongs to Christ alone and say that millions of Orthodox Christians around the world are "heretics" and therefore "without grace."

I'm certain that your simple arguments will simply lead me to the same high vantage point where I too will be able to simply judge my fellow Orthodox Christians with a judgement that used to belong to Christ alone, but I simply don't want to go there.

Let me put it simply: My reason for starting this thread was to make one point and one point only: Unto them that are unbelieving is nothing pure.

To put it even more simply: Faithlessness is next to godlessness.

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Waldemar,

I'm certain that your simple arguments will simply lead me to the same high vantage point where I too will be able to simply judge my fellow Orthodox Christians with a judgement that used to belong to Christ alone, but I simply don't want to go there.

But you already are there...!

Do you not see your own posting? How you post about not judging in one post, and then go on to attack people in the next? :(

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