Appropriate Modest Clothing in Church

[хорист]

Nowhere will you see me saying either of those things. But speaking of judging, you will see myself and others accused of such a thing!

Nicholas,

I apoligize for what was judging, to be sure. Of course you are entitled to your opinions on dress, and you do say correclty that you don't claim they are Orthodox.

But, in connection with girls' clothing, I teach (Russian Orthodox) church singing to about 20 kids, 11 and 12 year olds, more than half of whom are girls, most of whom are from Russia. They arrive to class or to services well-dressed, appropriately, and their clothing all appears to be off the racks of department stores. They don't seem to have a problem finding modest church clothing. I guess it depends on one's perception of modest.

At the same time, why is Sunday best such a bad thing? It used to be that people made an effort to dress for Church, for God's house. Do we have to throw on whatever is handy as if it were, in fact, a baseball game we were going to?

Good grooming never went out of style.

[CGW]

It takes humility to wear plain old country bumpkin stuff; it takes no humility to wear the latest fashion designs.

Maybe it takes more humility to wear clothing that doesn't shout to the world, "I am being humble!"

All I ever needed to learn about modest clothing (at least for women) I learned in middle school. Seventh grade, to be precise.

[ania]

I think it depends on two things. First, what do you mean by "well". If by that you mean expensive or upscale, then I think dressing well is incompatible with dressing modestly, since part of modesty is humility and simplicity. It takes humility to wear plain old country bumpkin stuff; it takes no humility to wear the latest fashion designs.

Cosidering I have to buy upscale clothes I can't afford in order to look the part for business meetings, and end up eating romen noodles for weeks at a time in order to afford those nice dress & pant suits (which btw cover me from neck to at least below the knee, and aren't tight), yes it is humbling. The thing is, there is no humility in dressing modestly so you will look more humble than everyone else.

It's also hard to be simple when you have all sorts of sophisticated (phat) pants, shirts, shoes, etc.

Dude, haven't you noticed some icons in church, say of queens, kings, princes, etc? They probably all wore their BEST to church, with fancy material, jewelry, etc. etc, & their icons show them in these very not simple garments. Only the monastics & the fools for Christ, & the poor saints are shown on icons in humble clothing. Shouldn't we imulate saints, who kept the burlap sacks in the closet & put on the silks on Sunday mornings?

I think it also has to do with culture. For some cultures, being modest would mean little house on the prarie type stuff (plain old clothes that covers the skin and doesn't let everyone else know how firm your butt is or how large your chest is); for other cultures, being modest means wearing your "sunday best" (suits, ties, etc.) In our culture, I think the sunday best stuff went out a couple generations ago. People used to even wear suits and whatnot to baseball games; those days are long gone, though.

sigh... If you've ever been to a normal ROCOR parish, you would know that that's not the case. Though some people chose to wear jeans to church, for the most part, it's Dockors, if not all out suits. And if you don't want upscale, there are plenty of places you can find decent clothes... Old Navy for one. There I've somehow managed to find quite a few shirts, skirts, sweaters, pants, whatever, that are perfectly decent. I've never had a problem finding cheep, modest (in my opinion anyway) clothing at malls, department stores, whatever.

And it all comes down to this... Orthodox Christians have never, in the past 2000 years, made efforts to show themselves up in society, any society. They have always integrated, wore the same clothes, ate the same food (with the exception of lent) and spoke the same language. Actually, since Christians who converted were already part of whatever society, they did not change their clothes, haircuts, whatever... If they had, everyone would be dressed as the Jews & Romans did 2000 years ago, not as the Russians supposedly did 100 years ago.

I'm not saying the "When in Rome do all the stupid sinful things the Romans do..." I'm saying don't make yourself stand out & seem like the pharasee "look at me look at me I'm so humble blah blah blah."

There is a joke someone just told me that I think is a good end to this post....
There once was a cantor, a rabbi & janitor. All three were moved by a passage of scripture.
The cantor beat his breast and said, "I am nothing, I am dust, I am nothing."
And the rabbi did the same, "I am nothing, I am dust, I am nothing."
Then the janitor, moved again, smote his breast and said, "I am nothing, I am dust, I am nothing."
So the cantor looks at the rabbi and says, "Look who all of the sudden thinks that HE can be nothing, too!"

[Justin Kissel]

You'd think after the last 3 threads on this subject I'd just learn to avoid these types of topics!

[Daniel]

From Three Saints Russian Orthodox Church in Garfield, NJ. I don't see a single beard in the whole picture!

That includeds the 2/3 priests in the photo too!

Ummm... Daniel mate, I don't see any priests in that photo... perhaps you can point them out?

Ania,
Sure. They are right about in the middle of the crowd, maybe 7 rows up from the bottom. There is at least 2. See how well they blend in with out any facial hair.

[尼古拉前执事]

At the same time, why is Sunday best such a bad thing? It used to be that people made an effort to dress for Church, for God's house. Do we have to throw on whatever is handy as if it were, in fact, a baseball game we were going to?

Good grooming never went out of style.

It is not a bad thing, I would never say such a thing at all. Sunday's best is for Sunday after all and Sunday's best is generally modest.

[Justin Kissel]

I suppose I should have connected point one and two, so that Sunday's best would be fine if that's what your culture calls for. What is modest is what doesn't draw attention to yourself, whether that be a suit or a t-shirt. If you're a king or queen you are expected to wear fancier things. But I have the word rigorist stamped on my head thanks in part to my own imprecision, so I guess everything gets processed through that filter. For any I've offended, I apologize.