Appropriate Modest Clothing in Church

[ania]

This is not the Orthodoxy of history, but an innovation. The real heirs of Russian Orthodoxy wear suits to church, and the women-- even the old women-- do not wear babushkas. They dress a bit better than Episcopalians, but not as well as black Baptists.

You've never been to Russia, or to ROCOR's Cathedral in Jordanville, have you Charles?

First, I'd like to tackle the dress in Russian churches in Russia today...
In Russia today, it's true, quite a few of the regular churchgoers wear clothes that aren't exactly from the model runways of Paris or Milan. That is partially from the fact that most people in Russia can't afford new clothes, especially designers. So they end up wearing that they bought probably in the 80s.
If you look at pictures of pre-Revolutionary Russia, you will see that people dressed up A LOT for church. Just look at the Royal Family. Elaborate hats, fancy dresses, suits, etc. etc. Villagers wore their best platki, most colorful dresses, skirts. The men wore embroidered shirts. They made an effort to go all out.
Also, just remember, that most people in Russia are "converts." They are reclaiming their faith, as the tradition was lost for over 70 years, and not allowed to evolve. What they do now in Russia isn't necessarily right. Interesting aside... When you walk into a church in Moscow in pants & no scarf, you get told to put on a skirt. When you do the same in St. Petersburg, you get told to put on a scarf. My sister lived in St. Petersburg for 6 months, and she would stop by a church every morning before class to say a prayer & light a candle. She wore pants most of the time, since it's rather cold there. The only comment she ever got was when she forgot her scarf on morning.
Also, how people dress in church in Russia means absolutely nothing about their knowledge of church rules. When I was in Russia, my father took us to Troitsa Sergiva Lavra for Dormition. I wore a long skirt, and a scarf. I also had a v-neck t-shirt on, and I wasn't wearing a cross (I had an amber necklace on, I'd left my neck cross at the grave of my dad's aunts, which had had no cross.) A man who was pushing through the thick crowd looked at me and said "Why are you in church, you don't even have a cross on? You should be ashamed of yourself, and your shirt is much to open, and your skirt's slit is indecent, yada yada yada..." for a good 5 minutes. This all went on during the holiest part of the service, Milost Mira. Obviously, he had preconceived notions of how to dress to church, but had absolutely no knowledge of what was going on in the service. Which is more important??? And what if that had been my first time to church? For sure if it was I would have thought twice before going near one again.
I grew up in ROCOR, and my family has been in it ever since the refugee camps in Germany after WW2. Any pictures you look at of the old-timers, you will see them wearing suits & ties, and the women wearing nice dresses or dress suits, and hats. None of those long flowy skirts and sandals or sneakers or whatever, with the scarves all but choking the life out of their chins. I remember the one and only time I wore what people refer to as "babushkas." My grandfather looked at me in disgust & said I looked like a kalhosnitsa (a Soviet commune worker) about to go to the fields.
In Jordanville, well, the dress code there... It depends on the time of year really. When it's cold, obviously wearing long skirts and loads & loads of layers of sweaters is logical. Also, since your probably going to have to dig your car out from under mountains of snow before getting church, your not going to put on your best. During the summer, you see a drastic difference in dress, among 2 factions. The people born & raised in ROCOR, even near Jordanville, wear bright, nice, even designer summer clothing, sandals, and elaborate straw hats. The old babushki tend to wear their own mode of clothing (if they were from peasant background, they'll wear colorful kasinki and practical skirts, dresses, if they are from more affluent background, dress suits, hats, & jewelry), but they don't shy way from bright colors, and they never cease to compliment the younger crowd on their choice of wardrobes.
The local converts somehow manage to convert their somber, baggy, “just in at the Salvation Army” winter clothing into somber summer clothing…. oh, and never forget the birkinstock-esq sandals with socks, those are pretty much a must for them.
I’ve got nothing against the converts around Jordanville, some are the nicest people I’ve ever met. Their mode of clothing just doesn’t agree with me. Just wanted to say that clothing definitely doesn’t make the Orthodox Christian.
Anyway, that's my rant.

[CGW]

This is the real tradition. The jurisdiction-hopping, the chasing after the True Church: that is essentially American, and thus essentially Protestant.

That is funny coming from a Protestant. Especially a Protestant that frequents Orthodox Message Boards but has no inclination to leave Protestantism for Orthodoxy.

I wouldn't say "no inclination". But I also don't see how that figures. If the ostensibly Protestant does something Protestant, and the ostensibly Orthodox does something that is also Protestant, who is inconsistent?

This is not the Orthodoxy of history, but an innovation. The real heirs of Russian Orthodoxy wear suits to church, and the women-- even the old women-- do not wear babushkas. They dress a bit better than Episcopalians, but not as well as black Baptists.

You've never been to Russia, or to ROCOR's Cathedral in Jordanville, have you Charles?

And why would I need to go to Jordanville? How did DC get to be excluded? Perhaps they do not dress as well in Russia, but these people and their parents haven't lived in Russia my entire life. (The ones who go back speak of it as an alien place.) Here, they dress the way the upper middle class people that they are always used to dress for church in this country.

Ania can speak for Jordanville. I can only speak for here. And here, even the Amish wear short sleeves, because it's too hot in the summer to wear long sleeves. Here, dressing differently from the world is an ultra-Protestant obsession, not Orthodox and not Catholic either.

And I have to suspect that you are being fed false promises, promises of wisdom that few men in their early twenties have the maturity to actually possess.

And this suspicion is based on your live encounters with which hierarchs of ROAC, exactly?

Well, you know, I met Bishop Spong once. And he was the same arrogant heretic in person that he was in his books.

[Alyosha]

I'd like to disagree with the notion that people dress badly in Russia, or anywhere in the former Soviet Union for that matter.. I'm actually quite surprised to hear it from people that claim to have visited Russia - one of the first things people notice about places like Moscow, for example, is how well Russians dress. I've been told that a lot by tourists that used to visit. Still, you can see it in many parishes, we, the newcomers, are often dressed really well and in good taste. Just my 5 cents

[bogoliubtsy]

From Three Saints Russian Orthodox Church in Garfield, NJ. I don't see a single beard in the whole picture!

You don't see too many people dressing for church like this anymore. I've got distant relatives somewhere in that picture... Such a shame to know they dressed inappropriately without the sock/sandal combo or the "let me dress well under my means for effect" look.

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[bogoliubtsy]

I'd like to disagree with the notion that people dress badly in Russia, or anywhere in the former Soviet Union for that matter.. I'm actually quite surprised to hear it from people that claim to have visited Russia - one of the first things people notice about places like Moscow, for example, is how well Russians dress.

It was definately one of the first things I noticed. Especially the girls with designer jeans and those "hip" elfish looking shoes. My girl-friend who came with me joked about how she was the frumpiest dresser she saw! ...and she's pretty "hip" here in the States.

[хорист]

The real Orthodox from the East do not purposefully make themselve dowdy or hirsute; that is American, and Protestant, too.

Is anyone doing this? I do not know of anyone doing it other than the Antiochians in Eagle River, Alaska

This is not the Orthodoxy of history, but an innovation. The real heirs of Russian Orthodoxy wear suits to church, and the women-- even the old women-- do not wear babushkas. They dress a bit better than Episcopalians, but not as well as black Baptists.

You've never been to Russia, or to ROCOR's Cathedral in Jordanville, have you Charles?

Ania has explained things well, especially about the fact that most Orthodox church-going people in Russia are essentially recent converts. But you want dowdy? What about this?

http://stanosheck.com/Modesty.html

And can someone explain how it is a part of any Orthodox tradition?

[尼古拉前执事]

But you want dowdy? What about this?

http://stanosheck.com/Modesty.html

And can someone explain how it is a part of any Orthodox tradition?

Hmm, it does not claim to be about Orthodoxy, does it? But how it relates is it is a place to buy modest clothes. You know, the virtue of Modesty we are called to have? Being a father, I know how hard it is for girls to find modest clothes at mass-retailers these days. Those stores are full of low-cut, belly-revealing, too tight, inappropriate hemline clothing.

There are all kinds linked there and I do not care for all of the styles necessarily, but it is a service to find modest clothing of varying types for varying types of people.