My pet peeves

[Serge]

In his book on the evolution of the Byzantine Rite churches and Liturgy (link on my Orthodoxypage), Canon Hugh Wybrew observed that back in the glory days of the eastern Roman Empire (what 19th-century historians named Byzantine), there was a problem with secluded balconies and rooms being used for amatory pursuits and with men in the huge congregation chatting up the ladies and making dates - sort of an early medieval Greek singles bar. I think it got so bad so soon that either St John Chrysostom or St Maximos the Confessor complained about it.

I agree that women must dress modestly in church and agree with the tradition of men and women standing on opposite sides of the church. As for the site with radical conservative fashion statements, the Russian-peasant look of the woman on the left is great for church. But I wouldn't go as far as saying all Orthodox women must dress like that all the time, nor dress like bit players from 'Little House on the Prairie', like the Amish or something.

God likes the body and sexuality - He made them. And some of today's fashions for women, with simple, elegant straight-bobbed hair and clean lines in clothing, are flattering and very sexy. (I'll do without some of the cultural errors, like abortion on demand, weird unnatural 'platonic' relationships - connected to promiscuity in other relationships, oddly enough - and blob-shaped cars - hooray for the retro Mini and the Plymouth PT Cruiser!) And that's great. But I'll concede to Nik that some of it definitely doesn't belong in church.

[Mor Ephrem]

2. Women who won't do prostrations because they are afraid a man will see up their skirt. If the women would all stand on the women's side of the church and the men on the men's this wouldn't be a problem, now would it?

I don't post often here, but stuff like this gets me mad, even though I am a guy, and I go to a church where men and women stand on separate sides, wear proper attire, etc. If women are afraid that men will look up their skirt, the solution for that is not to put women off to a side, because that does not eradicate the lustful spirit in a man; it only gives it one less outlet. It's much better for a man to focus on conquering his passions than for him to blame it on a woman not standing on the proper side.

Dealing with this issue in its entirety, I find myself in agreement with Serge.

[Justin Kissel]

Mor Ephrem,

You make a good point, and in fact, considering that it's Lent, you make perhaps the most timely point. However, splitting the sexes up can be a part of the solution. For instance, you say:

It's much better for a man to focus on conquering his passions

Surely you are correct! Yet how many teenage guys (and older men, for that matter), who don't really care about what's going on, could be benefited by seperating the sexes? We should be focusing on conquering the passions, yes, absolutely! Yet, it's unrealistic to expect that everyone in a typical parish will be attempting this (let alone succeeding). Lord knows I fail often myself, though I try. Yes, we do need to focus on ourselves, watch over our own minds and hearts; a little help from the Church will help this, though. You would agree?

Regarding looking "sexy," all I can ask is: why? What is the purpose of "looking sexy"? This one baffles me. I'll no doubt be dismissed out of hand by many as a "puritan" or "legalist" or something akin to this, but I really don't understand what benefit there is in "looking sexy". Leastwise, if you compare the benefits of modesty, and the perceived benefits of "looking sexy," I don't think there's any way modesty could lose out. God allowed sex, which is a good and enjoyable thing; what we think of as "sexuality" (e.g., "looking sexy") is a totally different animal, IMO.

[尼古拉前执事]

If women are afraid that men will look up their skirt, the solution for that is not to put women off to a side, because that does not eradicate the lustful spirit in a man; it only gives it one less outlet. It's much better for a man to focus on conquering his passions than for him to blame it on a woman not standing on the proper side.

I may have missed something as I just awoke, but how does this calm the fears of the woman? I have to agree that if a woman has this fear, the fear can be solved by standing with the women instead of mixed company while doing prostrations and wearing a long enough skirt that this is not an issue.

I am just thankful this is not an issue I have to deal with in my church.

And welcome back to the forum Mor Ephrem!

[Mor Ephrem]

Surely you are correct! Yet how many teenage guys (and older men, for that matter), who don't really care about what's going on, could be benefited by seperating the sexes? We should be focusing on conquering the passions, yes, absolutely! Yet, it's unrealistic to expect that everyone in a typical parish will be attempting this (let alone succeeding). Lord knows I fail often myself, though I try. Yes, we do need to focus on ourselves, watch over our own minds and hearts; a little help from the Church will help this, though. You would agree?

Dear Paradosis,

I've never been against the custom of men and women standing on opposite sides of the church. It is the custom in India, and it is the custom we have brought with us here. We do it in our parish, and contrary to some (who see more value in "families sitting together", which would require pews [another abomination]), I wouldn't have it any other way.

True story: the other day, I went to Vigil at an OCA church (it's my newest habit), and there was this blonde girl who I thought was really attractive, and also standing somewhat in front of me, but off to the side. OK, so everytime my head glances in that direction, I see her, and I can't concentrate on much else for a space of time. And just when I think I've got myself under control (sometime in the middle of Matins), this other girl walks in and sits right in front of me, and she's kind of attractive too, and then I realise that I am doomed for the rest of this Vigil if I don't keep my eyes closed and wait for Matins to end so I can flee.

I know that I, even though I try to focus on the Liturgy and other divine services and "apply" myself to them, am prone to abandoning the prospect entirely and looking at the other women in the church at times, as my story just illustrated. This doesn't happen in my church (although Communion time is a different story every so often...) precisely because there are no women around me. But, even with the separation, things can happen. Because the Church is helping us by this discipline, I agree with it (I often need it myself), but I don't think one can make this simply an issue of what women are wearing and where they are standing where they wear it, and that's why I felt I had to say what I said. It is a matter of the soul, and it is better for me to concentrate on myself than to concentrate on what others do.

[Methodius]

In his book on the evolution of the Byzantine Rite churches and Liturgy (link on my Orthodoxypage), Canon Hugh Wybrew observed that back in the glory days of the eastern Roman Empire (what 19th-century historians named Byzantine), there was a problem with secluded balconies and rooms being used for amatory pursuits and with men in the huge congregation chatting up the ladies and making dates - sort of an early medieval Greek singles bar. I think it got so bad so soon that either St John Chrysostom or St Maximos the Confessor complained about it.

Thank you for sharing that.

I agree that women must dress modestly in church and agree with the tradition of men and women standing on opposite sides of the church.

Amen!

And some of today's fashions for women, with simple, elegant straight-bobbed hair and clean lines in clothing, are flattering and very sexy.

The opposite of sexy is modesty. God appears to have called for us to be modest, not sexy.

(I'll do without some of the cultural errors, like abortion on demand, weird unnatural 'platonic' relationships - connected to promiscuity in other relationships, oddly enough - and blob-shaped cars - hooray for the retro Mini and the Plymouth PT Cruiser!)

Are you saying you like blob cars or that they are error, I'm confused.

But I'll concede to Nik that some of it definitely doesn't belong in church.

Amen!

[Serge]

I think those who demand all women dress like 'Little House on the Prairie' all the time haven't grasped the distinction between desire (natural attraction) and lust (the abuse of sex, a sin) and seem to have a problem with women, period. Sexy doesn't necessarily mean sinful.

Regarding cars, I meant I don't like blob-shaped cars and welcome the BMW remake of the '60s British Mini and the retro-'40s Plymouth PT Cruiser as relief from them.