Bartholomew and his Mötley Crüe of 40,000 Spiritual Children

[Matthew]

Bad Bart has done it again! He shows how his hatred for TOC non-commemorator monks on Mount Athos that he has attacked using state police and starvation is balanced and offset by his equally great love for people whose various and strange beliefs make them barely Christian in any patristic or Traditional sense.

http://www.ecumenicalnews.com/article/4 ... ting-1623/

[ANGELA]

Could you please be more respectful when speaking about the Patriarche?

Some of us follow the new calendar, even though we still check in occassionally in this forum.

I have noticed recently how some, talk badly and think that they are the only true way, and will be saved, because you are old calendarists.

I believe God will see the heart of each and everyone one of us, and it is His business who will go to Heaven.

Please, lets be respectful about the belief of others, as a muslim could also go into Heaven before us. God will see the heart, remember that.

[Matthew]

Dear Angela,

I ask your forgiveness if I grieved you, scandalised you, or wounded your conscience in my intention to inject a bit of humour into my critique of Bartholomew's involvment in an ecumenical gathering.

I would not ever deny him the respect we ought to pay to any human being who by nature are made in God's image. The special honours that attend those who validly and truly hold the episcopal rank however is another issue, because with those honours being accorded there are requisite responsibilities and standards of behaviour involved. I do not call him "His Holiness" and other such things on principle because he is unworthy of it. He is indirectly responsible (almost directly if you ask me) for causing or hastening the death of two monks of Esphigmenou by his police and coast guard enforced blockade on medicine, food, and the right to fish in their own waters. (one elderly monk died because they could not get medicine readily and another young monk died when he went out at night to retrieve a tractor left out in the field when the police appeared and the monks bolted to the safety of the monastery walls, but they needed the tractor to survive and farm for food so he went out to get it and in the cover of darkness did not see the edge of the road and it tipped over and crushed him and killed him. None of that would have happened if Bartholomew had not issued a blockade against the Esphigmenou monks. And there are many other reasons why most TOC Orthodox Christians do not recognise Bartholomew and do not commemorate him nor accord him honours. Until he stops assaulting the righteous confessors of Mount Athos and maligning them as "Schismatics" and even heretics, and blockading them from obtaining basic necessities of life, and yet blessing and praising as brothers and sisters religionists from other faiths including the muslims (yes he has publicsly called Muslims his brothers in God) until he stops this outrageous hypocrisy and ill-will I will not make him equal in honour to the confessors of Orthodoxy who reject his heresy of ecumenism.

But as I said, I meant nothing to grieve you as I thought all who are on this site are aware that we do not recognise the New Calendarists nor the World Orthodox as having grace or being genuinely Orthodox. This a forum for TOC jurisdictions which hold to traditional ecclesiological dogma which says Heresy drives out grace. Ecumenism of EP says it does not drive out grace. Never theless, I apologise if you were scandalised and saddened by what I said. We need to be even more saddened by the scandal of the militant ecumenism that the EP practices.

[ANGELA]

Thats okay, I understand what you mean.

I dont condone, what he is doing, by no means, but I let God be the judge.

I like to read the post on this forum, as most of the time their are genuine articles that I like to be informed about.

I personally dont like the "you have grace, they dont have grace" etc, that is talked about here.

God will judge everyone on this planet, whether they are Hindu, Moslem, Protestant, Catholic etc.

I have been following this forum for a very long time, ask Joanna

I like Joannas replies as I dont feel she judges who is Old and who is new. She is trying to follow Gods path and I respect that, as hard as it is. (Hope eveything is going better for you, Joanna)

Personally for myself I never question the old believers or the new believers. To me we are all Orthodox, regardless whether you celebrate the old calendar or the new. So long as we celebrate the birth of Christ and Pascha etc

When the forum is named after a Saint, automatically you think Orthodox, not old calendar.

Dont know, perhaps something to ponder about.

With Love in Christ

Angela

[Matthew]

Thank you Angela for your kindheartedness. I appreciate your reticence in forming an opinion of where grace may or may not reside. I too do not make such judgements, but I do accept the judgement of my right believing synod and that of the confessors and saints of the Catacomb Church, ROCOR up until and including Saint Philaret of NY, and the GOC and RTOC and the Synod of Metr. Valentine of Suzdal (forget what their acronym is.) They are TOCs and they are all agreed that any bishop of synod that has a bishop that teaches heresy or accepts the sacraments of the heterodox as real Mysteries that communicate grace is without grace. And generally the TOC synods have stated that the SCOBA in North America do not have grace, nor do the EP, MP, and JP since they all commune with heretics or proclaim heresy themselves. So, even if we stop short of deciding who is really teaching heresy we can at least agree with the well established teaching of the Church down through history that any Church that teaches heresy does not have grace. Again, I appreciate your unwillingness to decide who is actually in such a condition.

[Maria]

Thats okay, I understand what you mean.

I dont condone, what he is doing, by no means, but I let God be the judge.

I like to read the post on this forum, as most of the time their are genuine articles that I like to be informed about.

I personally dont like the "you have grace, they dont have grace" etc, that is talked about here.

God will judge everyone on this planet, whether they are Hindu, Moslem, Protestant, Catholic etc.

I have been following this forum for a very long time, ask Joanna

I like Joannas replies as I dont feel she judges who is Old and who is new. She is trying to follow Gods path and I respect that, as hard as it is. (Hope eveything is going better for you, Joanna)

Personally for myself I never question the old believers or the new believers. To me we are all Orthodox, regardless whether you celebrate the old calendar or the new. So long as we celebrate the birth of Christ and Pascha etc

When the forum is named after a Saint, automatically you think Orthodox, not old calendar.

Dont know, perhaps something to ponder about.

With Love in Christ

Angela

Dear Angela,

Like you, I try not to judge where grace may or may not be as God lets the sun and rain fall on the just and the unjust. Thus, we simply do not know. However, we do know that grace is to be found in Christ's Holy Church.

I was a New-Calendarist for many years before joining the GOC just last December 2011. What finally became the tipping point for me was the nefarious deeds of the OCA Synod (1) in accepting Archbishop Lazar, who has posted some outlandish articles on facebook; and (2) in forcing the resignation of Metropolitan Jonah, who is an avowed ecumenist, but a sincere man. When I looked into the Greek Orthodox and the Antiochians, I found that they are allowing intercommunion with members of the Roman Catholic Church. For example, in Alaska, the OCA provides for Roman Catholics giving them the last rites when their priests are not in town. In the Mediterranean area, thanks to the Balamand Agreement, the Antiochians and the Greeks will give communion to Roman or Eastern Catholics when they do not have the availability of the sacraments or a Catholic Priest. In addition, Catholics who want to become Antiochian or Greek Orthodox are often discouraged from doing so per the Balamand Agreement. If they do become Antiochian Orthodox, then they must first endure a lengthy catechumenate (up to three to ten years) to prove that they are stable in the faith. Several Catholics who told me that they were interested in becoming Greek Orthodox, were told by their Greek Orthodox Priest that he was informing their Catholic Priest about their "instability in the faith." This move by the Greek Priest stopped their inquiry and greatly embarrassed them. The Greek Priest told me that he will contact a Catholic Priest whenever a Catholic expresses interest in Orthodoxy because he is following the recommendations of the Balamand Agreement.

However, I have also known several Eastern Catholics who were allowed to receive confession and communion in the Greek Orthodox Church without being baptized or chrismated. Plus, I knew some Eastern Catholics who traveled the world, and they could always find an Antiochian or Greek Orthodox Priest who would give them Communion if they went to confession first. In fact, several Greek Orthodox Priests said that the EP is very close to having union with the Vatican. The fact that the Pope of Rome was commemorated during the Divine Liturgy at the Phanar a few years ago proves that the goal of this EP is to restore full relations with the Vatican. Certainly the Vatican has the same goal. It seems that the strongly held doctrines of Papal Infallibility and Papal Supremacy are the only hold outs that are preventing unity at this point.

In fact, back in 2003, I attended a pan-Orthodox retreat where OCA, Greek, and Antiochian priests were in attendance. They all agreed that the Documents of Vatican II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church are "Orthodox" due to the input of the Melkite Greek Catholics and that these two books should be read by all Orthodox Christians. I was appalled.

[ANGELA]

Thankyou both for replying and your thoughts.

Maria, I am Greek Orthodox and in Australia if you are not Orthodox and baptized, you cannot part take Holy Communion. It is forbidden. I know here in a parish, some asians try to wait in a line to take Holy Communion, and the priest asks them if they are orthodox, and they are not. He then asks them to step aside. He is not allowed by the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia, our Bishop Styllianos and Arch Bishop Seraphim. A big no, no.

As for the Catholics wanted to convert to Orthodoxy, I know they approach the Archdiocese and become catchumens, then baptized and take Holy Communion.

I have never heard of them being betrayed to the catholics, and having to wait so many years. That is not right in my opinion. Perhaps this happens overseas, but not in Australia.

I have heard some things about Patriarche Batholemew, and needless to say, it is very upsetting and sad. God will judge what he does. What has happened to the blessed monks in Esphimenou is really sad and I would think that their crowns are being weaved.