Roman Catholic Godparents in Greek and Antiochian Parishes

[Maria]

Why do some (many/all) Greek and Antiochian Orthodox churches allow for one godparent to be a Roman Catholic?

I have heard several Roman Catholic godparents say that they are going to take the child who was baptized in the Greek or Antiochian Church to the Catholic Church to receive Holy Communion. Is this a California phenomenon only?

This practice has been going on since before 2000. Why are these churches allowing it?

p.s. I attended several baptisms of infants in Greek and Antiochian parishes where the Bishop apparently allowed one of the godparents (usually the female) to be a Roman Catholic. Almost all of the Catholic godparents were very evangelical and very active in the Roman Catholic Church. In other words, they were Eucharistic Ministers and/or Readers. These poor babies. Think about how confused they will be as they grow up.

[timothyvargas]

my oldest son was baptized in the Greek Archdiocese and found out only later that his godfather was also a godparent to a Roman Catholic child. It appears to work both ways ;o)...After all, they are sister churches, two lungs in the same body.

One of my reasons for exiting the Greek Archdiocese was that the bishop allowed a wedding where a Roman Catholic priest (for the groom) concelebrated with the Greek priest (for the bride) at the Greek Cathedral in Oakland, CA. I guess it wouldnt be so bad if I was a cradle Greek archdiocese parishioner, but by being an ex-roman catholic who thought I had found the One true church, couldnt in good conscience stay with them.

I suppose all that matters is that your bishops do not allow such a thing, as all kinds of irregularities are going on around us. If we focus on what others are doing instead of looking inside of ourselves, then we are looking in the wrong direction and wasting our time and energy.

[Maria]

my oldest son was baptized in the Greek Archdiocese and found out only later that his godfather was also a godparent to a Roman Catholic child. It appears to work both ways ;o)...After all, they are sister churches, two lungs in the same body.

One of my reasons for exiting the Greek Archdiocese was that the bishop allowed a wedding where a Roman Catholic priest (for the groom) concelebrated with the Greek priest (for the bride) at the Greek Cathedral in Oakland, CA. I guess it wouldnt be so bad if I was a cradle Greek archdiocese parishioner, but by being an ex-roman catholic who thought I had found the One true church, couldnt in good conscience stay with them.

I suppose all that matters is that your bishops do not allow such a thing, as all kinds of irregularities are going on around us. If we focus on what others are doing instead of looking inside of ourselves, then we are looking in the wrong direction and wasting our time and energy.

It is not that I am focusing on the errors in Worldwide Orthodoxy.

My friends will want to know why I left the GOARCH. I do not know what to say, and certainly I do not want to sound triumphalistic or proud.
Currently, all of my friends and relatives (except for my mother, sister, and one Roman Catholic friend) DO NOT know that I have been received by Holy Baptism into the GOC-HOTCA jurisdiction as I am keeping silent about the matter. I am a grandmother now, and none of my grandchildren even know.

Yet, when I asked over at OC.net about this matter about four months ago (before becoming a catechumen) to see if this pattern were just a West Coast (Left Coast) phenomenon, I received no answers whatsoever. Perhaps those in the Antiochian and Greek Orthodox Archdiocese were too embarrassed to reply. I do not know.

How aware are those in the GOARCH and the AOC that these ecumenist activities are going on?
I have heard worldwide reports of Greek Orthodox Priests communing members of the Eastern Catholic Church or receiving them by Holy Communion.
Antiochians are communing members of the Eastern Catholics, Armenians, and Coptic Christians.
Baptisms are not being validly performed in the GOARCH, AOC, or OCA as people are not being fully immersed but baptized in kiddie pools with water being splashed over them because adult baptismal fonts do not exist. When I asked why a 100 gallon horse trough or other larger container was not used, they replied that those were not appropriate in a church building. How can a kiddie pool be more appropriate?

Perhaps this would be another idea for yet another thread:

1. Is it charity to remain silent when all this ecumenism abounds?

2. Let's brainstorm: How can we speak the truth in love and help to inform our erring brethren? Many are totally unaware of what is happening.

[timothyvargas]

Evlogeite!

Good morning Maria.

My comment about looking within before looking at others shortcomings is NOT an attack, so I hope you dont take it that way. That is one thing that I find to be lacking while typing in forums is that our disposition is not really seen, but only the words we type, then people like to imagine how people are feeling while typing, etc..

Your concerns are valid, and I can see why you bring them up here, since you didnt get any answers in the world denomination forum. As you are probably figuring out, these things have been going on for YEARS, and is nothing new, which most within those groups really do not care (or do not know) that the holy Orthodox faith is being betrayed. There are a handful of concerned clergy and faithful within those groups, but they need our prayers, not condemnations. Remember, we love the heretic but hate the heresy! Who knows, those who are in heresy now may surpass all of us TOC in Orthodoxy on the Last Day, because they may repent (which none of us knows either way) before their last breath.

For sure, your friends want to know why you left their organization, which no one can answer but YOU. If you know why you left, then you can put together your sources from the holy fathers, ecumenical councils, along with the violations from the Goarch, etc.. Certainly your bishops have such materials ready for you to pass out to others concering the issues at hand.

As for keeping your Baptism a secret, well, that is up to you and is actually sad they were not invited to such a joyous occasion! Whether they agree or disagree, it is something that cannot be denied nor hidden under a basket. JMHO.

I have found that the best thing a friend or neighbor can offer is prayer. Pray, pray, pray...

In Christ,

Timothy

[JHunt777]

Both GOA and Antiochian websites have guidelines for baptismal sponsors. The GOA site says the following:

BAPTISMS

A person who wishes to sponsor a candidate for Baptism or Chrismation must be an Orthodox Christian in good standing and a supporting member of an Orthodox parish. A person may not serve as a godparent if his or her marriage has not been blessed by the Church or, if civilly divorced, he or she has not been granted an ecclesiastical divorce, or for any other reason he or she is not in communion with the Orthodox Church.

http://www.goarch.org/archdiocese/depar ... s/pastoral

The Antiochian website says:

At least one of the godparents (the sponsor) should be an Orthodox Christian in good standing with the Church.

http://www.antiochian.org/midwest/holy- ... hrismation

The GOA site is clearer than the Antiochian site, but in any case it is obvious (or should be) from the canons that an Orthodox person should not have a non-Orthodox sponsor. If this is allowed, that is certainly lamentable. It becomes a lot more difficult, though, to determine how best to address such situations if/when they occur. After seeing such things, some people may just flee to one of the various “TOC/GOC” groups that exist, in order to (hopefully) find bishops who don’t tolerate such nonsense. But, then again, there has always been this kind of nonsense in the Church, and sometimes a bishop will be strict in some areas while being much too “soft” in other areas. In one local church you may have one bishop who is very good and observant, and another that doesn’t seem to have a clue about the canons. Intercommunion with non-Orthodox, if/ when it occurs, is just as lamentable today as it was two and three hundred years ago. We should pray that all bishops would rightly divide the word of truth and follow the way of the Fathers, but we probably should not attempt to actively address problems ourselves without a great deal of prayer and spiritual obedience. In the past, at various times and in response to various problems, God has raised up great saints, usually from the monastic ranks, to steer the Church away from heresies and help restore order. We should be humbled and inspired by their example and struggle to purify our own hearts so that God might more effectively use us for whatever He sees fit. If we try to correct problems in the Church without having been first sufficiently purified, however, we may not be driven to take such action by God but rather by our passions of pride, anger, judgment of others, etc. Nothing good can come of an effort that is motivated by the impure passions.

[Jean-Serge]

Why do some (many/all) Greek and Antiochian Orthodox churches allow for one godparent to be a Roman Catholic?

I know also one world orthodox parish in Paris where it happens too... I think the question is not only ecclesiological but also has a link with what people think about baptism. For many people, independently of their religion, baptism is a mundane event where you invite friends, family for a party, the baptism only being a pretext to meet, eat and so on. In such a mundane context. If you read books about proper behaviour written in the 19th century in France, you would be suprised how baptism was already a mundane event. It is only about who inviting, which gifts etc. It becomes natural that the criteria for choosing a godfather is mundane. Choosing the best friend and so on. The great cause is the loss of the religious dimension of baptism in the mind of people (the same happens with wedding).

[Maria]

Both GOA and Antiochian websites have guidelines for baptismal sponsors. The GOA site says the following:

BAPTISMS

A person who wishes to sponsor a candidate for Baptism or Chrismation must be an Orthodox Christian in good standing and a supporting member of an Orthodox parish. A person may not serve as a godparent if his or her marriage has not been blessed by the Church or, if civilly divorced, he or she has not been granted an ecclesiastical divorce, or for any other reason he or she is not in communion with the Orthodox Church.

http://www.goarch.org/archdiocese/depar ... s/pastoral

The Antiochian website says:

At least one of the godparents (the sponsor) should be an Orthodox Christian in good standing with the Church.

http://www.antiochian.org/midwest/holy- ... hrismation

The GOA site is clearer than the Antiochian site, but in any case it is obvious (or should be) from the canons that an Orthodox person should not have a non-Orthodox sponsor. If this is allowed, that is certainly lamentable. It becomes a lot more difficult, though, to determine how best to address such situations if/when they occur. After seeing such things, some people may just flee to one of the various “TOC/GOC” groups that exist, in order to (hopefully) find bishops who don’t tolerate such nonsense. But, then again, there has always been this kind of nonsense in the Church, and sometimes a bishop will be strict in some areas while being much too “soft” in other areas. In one local church you may have one bishop who is very good and observant, and another that doesn’t seem to have a clue about the canons. Intercommunion with non-Orthodox, if/ when it occurs, is just as lamentable today as it was two and three hundred years ago. We should pray that all bishops would rightly divide the word of truth and follow the way of the Fathers, but we probably should not attempt to actively address problems ourselves without a great deal of prayer and spiritual obedience. In the past, at various times and in response to various problems, God has raised up great saints, usually from the monastic ranks, to steer the Church away from heresies and help restore order. We should be humbled and inspired by their example and struggle to purify our own hearts so that God might more effectively use us for whatever He sees fit. If we try to correct problems in the Church without having been first sufficiently purified, however, we may not be driven to take such action by God but rather by our passions of pride, anger, judgment of others, etc. Nothing good can come of an effort that is motivated by the impure passions.

Even though GOARCH and the Antiochian websites do not openly promote intercommunion, their actual practices say otherwise. It is because I have attended many Baptisms in Worldwide Orthodox jurisdictions that I know of these secret practices that do cause confusion. If my former godmother were to witness any such irregularities, and she did, it disturbed her so much that she could not sleep and then would have to rely on tranquillizers and sedatives. How many Christians ignore their consciences and depend on those happy purple pills to lull them to sleep? How many Orthodox Christian depend on the medical professionals and pharmaceuticals to silence their consciences into submission to bishops who wrongly divide the word of the Truth?

I prayed in silence, did not complain, and suffered greatly interiorly until a Worldwide Orthodox Bishop gave two sermons, which were the last straws. In one sermon, he called for worldwide civil disobedience, yet civil disobedience by the Egyptian Christian Copts many to their led deaths as the Muslim military and police fired bullets at the Christians and kind Muslims who demonstrated on their behalf. Then this same bishop openly showed his disregard for motor vehicle laws. Unfortunately, this very bishop is favored by the Synod and could well become the next patriarch. If that happens, I will link to this thread. Lord have mercy.

The Bishops in the New Calendar Ecumenist Worldwide churches are unanimous in responding that they will be called to give response for their lack of care, thus lulling the People of God asleep. Yes, certainly many priests and parishes within World wide Orthodoxy are wonderful Christians, and I am not judging them, for they are probably holier than I.

Oh, yes, people are saying that only saints, called by God, should express concern, but where are they?
And if a saint were to rise up, would not they be called sinners and then be silenced?

Note: It is by our silence that we give consent to all this ecumenism.
So is it a greater sin to speak the truth with love, or to remain silent?

Some of my Greek-in-laws are now very confused and have lost it.
They have been hurt by parish priests who follow Elder Ephraim and who urge blind obedience to hierarchs.
As a result, they have only been attending church for Christmas and Easter.

And now my old choir director is sending me emails requesting me to sing at hierarchial Divine Liturgies,
as apparently only a few choir members are responding. I have been ignoring her, but for how long?