Spiritually confused

[gimme your lunch money]

Dearest All,

Right now I am in the middle of Fr. Seraphim Rose's "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future". I have hit upon a very troublesome section in this book (and believe me...there are many, but this is the worst). Fr. Seraphim Rose has devoted an unusually large section of this book on the "charismatic" movement. My last read was a description of a Protestant Christian "revival" in Indonesia during the seventies where apparently 200,000 pagans were converted in 3 years, 30,000 people were healed, people were raised from the dead, there were literally "hands" appearing out of nowhere distributing food out of thin air to the hungry, voices from heaven are heard teaching the people Protestant hymns, people are miraculously transported from place to place....etc. ...etc. But we troubled me the most about this "revival" episode is the following: (quote from book) "fire comes down from the sky to consume Catholic religious images" Fr. Rose doesn't really offer any explanations as to how all this happened other than it simply "came from Satan"....but he doesn't give a very convincing argument other than basically "it didn't happen in an Orthodox Church ergo it is from the Devil". Now to be honest, there's some itching feeling in my heart that WANTS to believe such episodes are from Satan.....but I don't know how to convince myself. There are two equal possibilities here: either everything that ever goes on in any Protestant, charismatic, or Evangelical atmosphere is a total fraud sent up from Satan (note: I was an Evangelical Protestant b4 I became Orthodox).....even all the sincere repentances and holiness of life and miracles I've seen and heard about therein......OR icons really ARE idols, and therefore a fortiori both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are Satanic lies lived since the 1st Century and all of Christianity really was in darkness until an obscure German monk in the 16th century saved the day....including all the supposed miracles of icons in both the West and the East. Both answers are equally frightening and absurd....but by the very nature of this quagmire,precisely one and only one of these options is true. I don't know my way out of this. It's sorta like in the movie "Labirynth" when the girl came up to two doors, with a goblin guarding each. It is certain that one always lies and that the other always tells the truth but what is NOT certain is which one is which? I am utterly and totally stuck. I even looked at My Saviour icon and asked the Lord that if iconography really is of the devil that He would miraculously destroy my icons but if they really are a blessing that He would do something else miraculous to indicate so. Please give me wisdom, someone. I will NOT find peace or rest of soul until i'm given a final answer. thank you.

[gimme your lunch money]

....let me add that I find it preposterous that Satan would perform so many miracles....especially ones that are apparently beneficial to so many people....and especially since I have never heard of any miracles of even a 1/100th of this magnitude in the Orthodox church. I am lost....show me the way. Which is the true deception?

[Jean-Serge]

In the Apocalyspsis by Saint John the Theologian, it is cleraly written that the Antichrist will make great signs and miracles to lure everybody...

[spiridon]

Gimme your lucnh, I will tell you what Ive been told- You must have faith in the Truth that the Church and its Fathers teaches us, for the evil one will attack at this level called confusion.............the best way to avoid this is to sometimes avoid these type of Christian bashing books alone, unless your spiritual Father gives a Blessing to read...there are far more better books to be reading like those of St.John of Kronstadt, St theophan the recluse,elders of Optina,Romanian elders and many,many more. I only say this because i too have read that book on my own, and for some weird reason anytime i have picked up any Fr.Seraphim rose book and attack of that nature occured, its like the evil one has a special vandetta against anyone reading those books, and can be harmful if spiritually weak.........
Fr.Seraphim was a great Priest who will one day be recognised a saint not only by the Optina elders but, by all the world.........
if you are gonna read his books ask him in prayer for protection against confusing thoughts and have a prayer rope with you and when you start to get these confusing thoughts put the book down and start the Jesus Prayer..........................in CHRIST niphon

[DavidHawthorne]

Hi, Lunch Money-

Before I became Orthodox I was in the charismatic movement for over ten years and even graduated from one of their Bible colleges with the intention of becoming a missionary. As for the miracles, well, a lot of it is hype.
To say all of the miracles are from the devil is a little simplistic but I am sure he wouldn't mind performing a few miracles for someone's temporal good as long as it was to the detriment of their eternal good by obscuring the One Truth of the Orthodox Church. Remember our Lord's words that many would come to Him at the judgement saying, "Lord, Lord, did we not do miracles in Your name" and he will answer them and say, "Depart from me I never knew you." So, yes, even miracles done in the name of Christ can be spiritually harmful and have a dark origin.
Then there is the possibility that some of the miracles are indeed from God because of His great care for all men. The Apostle St. James tells us He causes His rain to fall on both the just and the unjust. And if it falls on the unjust then surely He will sometimes bless those in the same position as Apollos in the book of Acts: those who truly love the Lord and follow Him with the half-light of heterodoxy that they have much more faithfully than some of us with the whole Gospel of Orthodoxy. So I can see God answering their prayers on an individual basis.
And then there is the hype. Whether it proceeds from self-delusion or hearsay or whatever. I was in the thick of the Charismatic movement for over a decade here in the buckle of the Bible Belt, attending services three or more times a week plus several years at an intense Bible college and even some time overseas in various churches including Pastor Cho's church in Seoul...........never saw a miracle. Whenever I asked my pastor why it wasn't happening in our church it was because there wasn't enough faith in the congregation, they were too sophisticated and educated to doubt the miraculous (despite the fact that a miraculous approach to Christianity was all they ever talked about. I also heard stuff like, well, it's not happening here but that church across town, wow! It happens every week! They're having a revival! So I would go there the next few weeks and........well our people still have not developed enough faith to walk in the miraculous- but you should go across town to THAT church- it's a real move of the Spirit. To which I would say, "That is where I go.......nothing's happening." I visited many churches, always following the trail of "praise reports" but whenever I got to the new place of worship it was the same old story: nothing happening. I then went to a Bible college famed throughout the charismatic movement as a place where things were always happening. Spent two and a half years there, graduated, and..........didn't see nothing there either.
One interesting episode occured during my time before going off to Bible college: my pastor and one of the elders were sent by my church to do an evangelistic tour in India. There was a lot of excitement about it and we all looked forward to hearing about all that happened while they were there. They came back and gave their reports: THOUSANDS converted, HUNDREDS of miracles- even eyeballs being formed in empty sockets, arms and legs growing where there had been nothing but stumps, demons cast out and dead raised.....and everytime the pastor made a point he would ask for acknowledgement from the elder who had gone with him. And everytime he was asked to confirm the veracity of what had happened he would say yes but he had a sick sad look and downcast eyes like he didn't really mean it and ever afterwards when asked by a fellow church member about the miracles would mumble yes that's what we saw and would walk off without wanting to continue the conversation. I then realized that all these signs and wonders I was wondering about were always going to be happening in a big way SOMEWHERE else because, as the pastor said during his India debriefing: people here in the States have too much doubt programmed into them ( despite the fact they were wholehearted Bible studying, service attending Charismatics) where in Third World countries they believe immediately (even though they are steeped in an idolatrous paganism with no knowledge of Christ or the Bible).
In the end, I think we should not use miracles as the sole proof of Truth since from our fallen perspectives we don't really know which source they emanate from. But as St. Paul said: "Test the spirits" and find an objective standard of verifying what is right. And here we can do no better than following the Faith once delivered to the saints as St. Jude taught. Follow the Faith that has an unbroken link to Christ and the Apostles in belief, worship and practice and you will be following a Truth that can no longer be led astray into error by the weakness of men.

In Christ,
Rd. David

[Chrysostomos]

gimme your lunch,

St. Matthew in his gospel relays the words of Christ: "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign..."Matt. 12:39 NASV

The very fact that what many people are looking for is a sign, is more indicative of the their "generation", rather than evidence or lack thereof God's presence.

I think your focus is on the wrong issue. I speak from experience, rather than from judgement. The issue at hand is your salvation and what the Orthodox Church prescribes as your prescription for obtaining it.

Yes, the various Protestant, Catholic, etc., churches have their prescriptions as well.

The Eastern Orthodox Tradition, prescribes: Purification, Illumination and Deification. It is by this process, and none other that one is brought into complete communion with God. The way of the Hesychast. One does not need to be a monastic in order to use this prescription of the Church. It is available to all.

As to your question in regards to Icons, personally I recently have not appreciated those on this site who have posted icons of "ecumenism" and someone standing upon Patriarch Sergius. While they might find it humorous, or try to prove a point, it only cheapens what the essence of Icons are. Those "bogus" icons are a corruption of iconography. All icons deal with Christ, no matter who is portrayed in the icon. An icon always speaks of the truth of the Incarnation. Therefore, unwittingly, those who post such corruption (these two mentioned as an example), participate in the corruption of icons by posting them. They water down the essence. Did they do it purposely, no, I do not believe so, but they did harm, and no good by doing so. I really think it is that those outside the Church, and yes, even in the Church, do not fully comprehend what the Icons are to the Church. How can I expect those outside the Church to understand what Icons are, when the average Orthodox Christian, when asked what they are, cannot even explain it themselves?

My brother, do not focus on the externals. You and I must not seek signs, but take the prescription given by the Church. The challenge by many today, is that they do not take the prescription as prescribed. They rather argue about who's Church has grace and who's does not, rather than taking the prescription, being purified, and then becoming illumined whereby then they are living the truth and manifesting/incarnating the Truth, rather than merely discussing it.

To me what is taking place in the Church today, when I hear of arguments about Canons and etc., who's church is the "true" church,e tc. is a Neo-Barlaamism that has taken hold of many. They look at Scholasticism (knowing the canons for example) and Moralism as the answer to the Churches problems, rather than taking the prescription that has been advocated by the Church. They rather take their time watching to see and judging whether others are doing so, than doing it themselves. Or even worse yet, they look at themselves as having already obtained, or elevate themselves above others, and come across, either purposely, or unknowingly as a Pharisee. I can attest to this myself. Judging others, not loving, having no compassion, envy, jealousy, pride, arrogance, debating, are just a few. Honoring God with my lips, but my heart being far away from him.

I have started to take the prescription as prescribed. It is not easy. There are days when I will only take some of the prescription, but leave the rest in the "bottle". Even some days in which I chose not to, or forget, due to my utter sinfulness. Yet, in my sorry state, I can honestly say, I have more peace. I have more love, compassion. I am less and less prone to judge my brother or even strangers. I see myself more and more in the state as a Publican, than as a Pharisee. It does not bring joy, but rather sorrow and yes - tears. As I see I wasted so much time on that which in essence, was not important at all.

Take the Church's prescription. Even if you see no one else taking it, pay no mind. Do not fall into the trap of judging them for not doing so, rather "save yourself, and thousands around you will be saved".

Be that "living" icon that Christ has called you and I, and all who call themselves Orthodox.

Manifest/Incarnate Christ to the world, and by that manifestation, many will see your good works and glorify God who is in heaven.

Please, I am not encouraging you to do so, as if I have obtained, for I am so far from the "mark" of the high calling of Christ Jesus. Rather, in what limited ways and by God's mercy and grace, I see a healing taking place in my soul and body. Like when you have a really bad case of the flu, and you begin to notice, albeit how little, a reduction of that flu and that you are drawing closer to being healthy, rather than staying in that state of sickness.

Your unworthy fellow struggler in Christ,

Rd. Chrysosotomos

I

[gimme your lunch money]

DavidHawthorne: are you telling me that your pastor LIED about the miracles?