Vegetarianism as a sign of Piety?

[TomS]

I was wondering the other day. What is the deal with vegetarianism and being more "pious"?

Does anyone believe that Christ was a vegetarian? I mean, if he WAS, don't you think that the Apostles would have been, and would have taught the faithful that being a vegetarian was being more Christ-like?

[Reader Benjamin]

Just because you are a vegetarian does not mean you are pious. And eating meat does not mean you are not pious. Part of Monasticism is the giving up of meat, put this is not a show of piety but of discipline in order to bring the body into subjection and not being subject to the body's passions. Meat tends to stir up the passions.

Piety is not a matter of eating and drinking or the lack there of, the lack is to help in focusing our heart and mind on Christ, on the Heavenlys. All these rules, cannons of the church is not to burden us, they are to assist us in our quest to be holy like God. The world teaches us that if it feels good do it. The Church is teaching us to seek first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness, not our own.

Too often we think that a person doing certain things must be pious, it is not so. God honors and glorifies whom He is pleased with. Examine the lives of the Saints and see what piety is. It is not a list of does and don’ts; these are things that they used to get where they are. It is Love for God, it is Humility. We tend to think we are so much better than someone else because we do or don’t do certain things. Our life here is to prepare ourselves for eternity, to change our inside out. Otherwise we become like the white washed tombs of Phariseeism that are full of dead man’s bones.

Being a vegetarian may help you be more pious, but it does not make you pious.

[TomS]

Meat tends to stir up the passions.

Well, this is just nonsense. I sure have met a few vegetarians who certainly had their passions stirred up over people eating meat.

The point is - if Christ ate meat then it can't be a bad thing.

[Reader Benjamin]

I did not say it is a "bad" thing. I had tried to say why the Monastics do not eat meat. Not eating meat does not make one passionless. Eating of meat or not is simply a "tool" to help control the passions. I can not say how meat arouses the passions but also oil and dairy will as well. But Monastics eat those. I unfortunately can not give you the names of the Saints that have written these things down, I am not making these things up they are things I have remembered in my own readings of mostly lives of the Saints, but I have read other things as well. What have you read to help you understand what an Orthodox Christian is?

We use what tools we wish to accomplish what we want. I can use a hand saw to cut my 2x4s or I can use a circular saw. One is safer, one is faster. We chose the tools we want to use. You distain the idea of not eating meat, fine however beware do not distain your brother who does not eat meat, just as he is not to distain those that eat meat.

If you want a life of ease, with no problems, doing what ever you want to do. Being an Orthodox Christian is not for you. This is a life wrought with perils of all kind. We do things that every one in their “right” mind will not do, like fast from meat, dairy, and oil from time to time. We bow before Icons of Saints our Saviour and the most Holy Theotokos asking them to pray for us as if we are in their presence, and we know that we are in their presence. I was not born Orthodox Christian, I converted from Protestantism. I memorized portions of the Holy Scripture; I looked for churches that had the Spirit of God and the truth. I found a lot of power hungry guys telling me what I needed to do. Those that had a holy life made sure everyone knew about it. I saw a great deal of pride. I see all this in the Orthodox Church as well, it is not filled with perfect people, but what I found in the Orthodox Church is tools that have worked over the centuries that have help ordinary people, like me, become Saints. Men and women of God that God glorifies with gifts of healing, not the sham I have seen in Protestantism, I have read of healings from “dead” Saints, healings from paintings on wood, (Icons). I have read where rivers have changed there courses because of prayer, didn’t Jesus say that if we had faith we could move mountains. The Orthodox Christian life is one of growing faith, step by step. No I do not have the faith to turn a river or move a mountain, however being in the Orthodox Christian Church I can read the lives of Saints that have done this and learn to imitate them in my own feeble way, and perhaps I may grow in faith enough that I can move mountains. Where is the lives of Protestants that can do this? In the reading of Protestant lives, do we see humility, patience, Godlyness? The Orthodox have 1.000s of lives that show these things, and some even from the 20'th century. This is why I am Orthodox, I found lives that preach rather than lips that talk the good talk. The Holy Scriptures tell us to live for God, not just to say a conversion prayer and "poof" you are saved, I believed this at one time but I saw that the fruit of that was not changed lives, very few lives changed and I saw a great deal of pride, I am trying to overcome the pride I have, the Orthodox Christian Church is teaching me how to do this, somthing I never saw as a Protestant.

Eat meat, but grow in faith. Do not give the person who does not eat meat a hard time because he does not eat meat, even if he gives you a hard time for eating meat. To bear with the reproaches of others is what Jesus did, and is what we should be imitating. Love thy neighbor as thyself.

[Maria]

The l-Carnitine found in meats is said to stimulate a person's passions.

Since I have become a vegetarian at my doctor's request (I am allergic to all meats especially poultry and pigs), I struggle less with my passions. That has been a blessing. However, this can lead to pride. We all must struggle. If we don't struggle we die.

[TomS]

I unfortunately can not give you the names of the Saints that have written these things down, I am not making these things up they are things I have remembered in my own readings of mostly lives of the Saints, but I have read other things as well. What have you read to help you understand what an Orthodox Christian is?

I am not disputing the fact that the Fathers thought this, but they were wrong.

I have read many, many books about being an Orthodox Christian, but that does not mean that they all are correct.

I have read of healings from “dead” Saints, healings from paintings on wood, (Icons). I have read where rivers have changed there courses because of prayer, didn’t Jesus say that if we had faith we could move mountains.

And I have read similar "miracles" concerning Roman Catholic saints and pious men and women in various Protestant sects. You just choose to believe the ones are true concerning Orthodox Saints. How does that prove anything?

If you want a life of ease, with no problems, doing what ever you want to do. Being an Orthodox Christian is not for you.

So, what are you saying - that to be an Orthodox Christian you should not eat meat?

[joasia]

CHRIST IS RISEN!

TomS wrote:

I am not disputing the fact that the Fathers thought this, but they were wrong.

So you think that the Holy Fathers are wrong? And what makes you an authority on that? They lived and died for their faith and they had a very close communion with God. But, of course, you would doubt what was written about them too, anyways.

And I have read similar "miracles" concerning Roman Catholic saints and pious men and women in various Protestant sects. You just choose to believe the ones are true concerning Orthodox Saints. How does that prove anything?

You claim to have come to Orthodoxy because you saw that it was as close to the truth than any other religion. How do you think that faith was sustained if not by the lives and deaths of those that lived it? At one point, you will have to accept the lives of the saints because they are the ones that have sustained the Orthodox faith. As far as miracles of other religions....you know that they are outside the true faith.

As far as meat in the belly...men do tend to become more vigarant when they eat meat, than when they don't. But, it's not only a matter of meat, but a matter of self-discipline and restraint. It's a spiritual exercise. Even the non-Orthodox know the effect of abstaining from meat. Everybody knows that meat induces vigor. Have you tried to go without meat for 40 days? I don't think so, otherwise you would have noticed a difference in your energy level and you wouldn't be arguing the point.

So, what are you saying - that to be an Orthodox Christian you should not eat meat?

No. To be an Orthodox Christian means that you should respect the traditions that have been established, otherwise you become a hypocrite; calling yourself Orthodox and not following anything that was established by the Holy Fathers to guide the Orthodox. It's like saying you are a father, but refuse to do anything for your children; then how can you say to us that you are a father? By physical circumstance only. And it looks like you are Orthodox by physical circumstance only, also.

Christ taught the Apostles and the Apostles passed down the teachings to the next generations and so on. Those generations are the Holy Fathers.

At one point, Tom, you will have to let go of your doubts. Otherwise, how can you be true to yourself if you do not believe in the faith you chose? You become a hypocrite to yourself. Can anybody have peace in their hearts when they know they are living a lie? Or, admit that you are not Orthodox and you will cease from being a hypocrite in other people's eyes. At least, you will be an honest man...which is a respectable starting point. At least nobody can accuse you of being a hypocrite.