Now that they have mutual recognition of Baptisms...

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

...why not ordinations?

http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/what/faith/bem5.html#I

This is part of the "Faith and Order" section - a manifesto of the "World Orthodox" and their goals for the future.

[George Australia]

...why not ordinations?
http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/what/faith/bem5.html#I

Dear in Christ OOD,
At this stage, I think we need to keep this in perspective. Of course, the sensible thing for me to do would be to keep my thoughts to myself. But since Orthodoxy is about Truth, I believe we need to seek the truth diligently, and not listen to rumours. So at the risk of being labelled an 'ecumenist sympathizer", here are my thoughts.

Firstly, this article is copyrighted 1982. Remember 1982? That was when deelyboppers, leg warmers and ra-ra skirts were considered the height of fashion! As you can see from the fashions at the time- nobody was thinking straight! But not only that,this was well before the crisis in the Eighth Assemby of the WCC in Harare between the Orthodox and other participants which led to the Thessaloniki Communique banning Orthodox joint worship with non-Orthodox in the WCC as well as the establishment of the Special Commission on Orthodox Participation in the WCC. The Orthodox no longer even pray with the non-Orthodox in the WCC- how can they recognise their 'baptisms' let alone their clergy?

Secondly, nothing in the artilce you posted a link to seems to indicate to me a stated mutual recognition of baptism.

Thirdly, the Pre-Assembly meeting of the Orthodox which took place this month in Rhodes in preparation for the Ninth Assembly of the WCC seems to indicate a further distancing from the WCC, particularly on matters of ecclesiology. Here are some excerpts from the Final Report of the Orthodox Pre-Assembly Meeting in Rhodes 10-17 January 2005.

In answer to the WCC Ninth Assembly stated theme of "transforming the Church", the "World Orthodox" Bishops replied:

19. Jesus Christ, Who is “the same, yesterday, today, and forever,” (Heb 13,8 ), is the head of the Church, which is his Body, sustained by the Holy Spirit, and in this sense the Church cannot sin. Therefore we do not ask for the “transformation of the Church”…..

In response to the WCC Ninth Assemby theme of "strengthening the koinonia of the Churches", the "World Orthodox" bishops replied:

20. The word koinonia, which has seen ever-increasing use in ecumenical circles, is another concept which admits several meanings. In its fullest sense it describes a communion which has its center in the Holy Trinity, and sacramentally in the Holy Eucharist. In this case one cannot describe the fellowship of the churches within the WCC as koinonia……

Concerning the "call to the Orthodox to share the ecumenical vision of the WCC" following the "Eighth Assemby Crisis", the "The 'World Orthodox' Bishops replied:

28. The theological presuppositions, organizational structure, and ethos of the WCC issued largely from the experience of Western Christianity. It was this Western perspective which became the “ecumenical norm.” The Orthodox convictions and perspectives were inevitably heard as critiques coming from a minority, usually respected or at least tolerated, but not affecting or changing the normative approach of the majority………

Regarding the question from the "Special Commission on Orthodox Participation in the WCC" requesting a statement from the Orthodox as to whether the ecclessiology of the Orthodox Church admits the validity of other churches, the "World Orthodox" Bishops replied:

35. We took notice of the particular question posed to the Orthodox in the Special Commission report: “Is there space for other churches in Orthodox ecclesiology? How would that space and its limits be described?” This question follows naturally from our self-understanding – specifically in our self-identification with the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church……

What I see from this report is a further distancing of the "World Orthodox" from the goals of the WCC, not a further miring in the bog of it's heresy.

George

[Justin Kissel]

I don't know George, the document seemed to me to be mostly interested in a social gospel. I thought that, according to the saints and Scripture, transformation of the world came through prayer, fasting, vigils, alms giving, worship, the sacraments, etc. What ever happend to St. Isaac the Syrian and St. Seraphim of Sarov talking about gaining inner peace/silence and converting thousands around you? What about St. Justin Popovich saying that asceticism is Orthodoxy's only missionary school, and ascetics her only missionaries? This document seems to instead say that if we could all just get along and come to some common ecclesiological agreements (or best case scenario--if the heterodox would just become Orthodox), then God would just magically make the world peaceful through his Grace, wars and violence would end, etc. This is exactly the type of stuff that plays right into ecumenism: we disagree in theology, but let's just try to come to some sort of "joint-agreements" on the issue, and let's then tranform the world regarding social issues (ie. helping people). In fact, so far from moving further away from the WCC, I see the document as essentially saying (not conciously saying, of course) that they've taken the bait, and have been hooked, and are now being reeled back in to the WCC.

The "crisis" that they spoke seemed to have been little more than a political maneuver-- "we'll leave the WCC! ... unless you change the way things are run." In other words, it wasn't theological issues that caused the "crisis," but political ones, or perhaps just the realisation that they really weren't getting anywhere. So now the WCC has made some changes, and the Orthodox are falling back into old habits. The "crisis" has been taken care of, they can go back to things like "working together towards a common prayer life that is reflective of ecumenical realities" (31). But hey, until that time when they can comfortably pray with the heterodox of the world, they can at least assuredly "meet in the context of daily prayer and fellowship" and have "leadership... provided" by the Copts. The seminar that took place late last year--that seemed to me to yield some positive results, though I haven't ready any full presentations yet. This document, on the other hand, I have a lot of problems with (the above is just the tip of the iceberg--I had spent a while writing a post going point by point through the document, but decided to scrap that post as being too negative and judgmental. Perhaps this one is as well, I pray not.)

[George Australia]

Dear in Christ, Justin,
By no means am I saying the current position of the "World Orthodox" Bishops is flawless. What I am saying is that they've certainly moved away from the days when they were openly dallying with 'Branch Theory' and even more recently, taking part in syncretistic rituals. They also seem to be more careful about what they say and do. They are becoming, in a sense, 'less' ecumenistic rather than moreso.
All we can discern is their open actions, we cannot discern their motivation (political or otherwise). Our Lord told us that "by their fruits, you shall know them", not 'by the sap', which only God can see. The tree was dreadfully diseased as we saw by the fruits- I do not mean the Church, but it's hierarchy.What I am saying is that rather than showing signs of a worsening disease in the fruits, there seem to be slight signs of improvement. For the "World Orthodox" Bishops to openly state that koinonia does not exist between the 'churches' in the WCC is cedrtainly an improvement.
George

[Justin Kissel]

Good points Paint me pessimistic, I guess.. . .

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

George,

I am just posting the documents their organization published on their collective behalf. If you are saying they have new documents which replace these documents then that would be refreshing to see.

With regard to your other comments; I have never been up on everything they do with the homosexual bishops and women priests behind closed doors - if they pray, hold hands swaying back and forth, or whatever - it does sound like they don't want to be as obvious anymore in the eyes of the media like you say. I guess that is good? They still intend however to diligently publish their dogmatic tranquilizers such as the recent pronouncement on the Filioque I would guess. And They still recognize the baptisms of any "priest" from wherever, just as long as they utter the words "Father, Son, Holy Spirit" and POOOF, God is immediatley constrained to make that person a member of the Orthodox Church (or is it the Protestant fuzzy pluralistic church they believe in?), As far as I know anyway. But things are getting better you say? Maybe I am just not as current as you are.

[George Australia]

Dear in Christ, OOD,
I have presented two documents to you showing how those you call "World Orthodox" are distancing themselves from the ecumenism they (probably unwittingly) got involved in. And what do you resort to?- Shock tactics by discussing things which you do not know for certain have happened and which at any rate, should not even be mentioned by Christians (Ephesians 5:3).
Believe what you will, I have presented two reports to the contrary.
George