Waldemar asks, What if Saint Seraphim of Sarov Resurrected?

Waldemar · Post by **Waldemar** » Sat 22 May 2004 3:43 pm

If (or is that when?) St. Seraphim is resurrected in Russia would he be considered a Sergianist, Ecumenist, Modernist if he does not repudiate the MP and those jurisdictions in communion with the MP?

Waldemar · Post by **Waldemar** » Sat 22 May 2004 3:47 pm

oops I forgot to add "a heretic without grace" to "Sergianist, Ecumenist, Modernist..."

尼古拉前执事 · Post by **尼古拉前执事** » Sun 23 May 2004 2:24 pm

This is just a what if that personally I cannot see happening thus see no reason to think of "what if ... "

Waldemar · Post by **Waldemar** » Sun 23 May 2004 2:58 pm

I didn't mean to propose a "what if" situation, but I am rather seeking some clarification on the thinking of the Holy Remnant-minded Orthodox Christians on these boards.

Let me ask plainly:

If anyone, including a resurrected Saint does not "wall" themselves off from "World Orthodoxy" (e.g. Moscow Patriarchate and all the Russian Orthodox strugglers under this jurisdiction like the nuns of Diveyevo) are they or are they not heretics devoid of grace?

OrthodoxyOrDeath · Post by **OrthodoxyOrDeath** » Sun 23 May 2004 7:09 pm

If anyone, including a resurrected Saint does not "wall" themselves off from "World Orthodoxy" (e.g. Moscow Patriarchate and all the Russian Orthodox strugglers under this jurisdiction like the nuns of Diveyevo) are they or are they not heretics devoid of grace?

Orthodoxy is not based on sentimental feelings.

We know as all of the Saints and Holy Fathers have confessed that the Mysteries of the Church are not found among heretics and those in communion with them. This has been delt with and written about so exhaustively that there is no room for argument unless you wish to forge your own doctrine.

In addition, this has nothing to do with the Grace of God working with people outside the Church, which is something different than the Grace of the Church. Cornelius received the Grace of the Holy Spirit before he was baptized. Everyone who is converted to the truth of Orthodoxy and becomes a catechumen has already been enlightened by Grace to some degree. But those outside the Church do not have the Grace of the Mysteries.

And to now quote someone who I believe answered this, I am also prepared to admit the possibility that even when a community has been anathematised by a true and valid anathema, God may still protect certain individuals within that community from the full force of the anathema for a longer or shorter period. I would only argue that if God, Who is the Sovereign and Maker of the law, makes exceptions to His law, that is no reason for us, who are not privy to His secret judgments, not to keep the law. And the law was stated by the Lord Himself as follows: “If he shall neglect to hear the Church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily, I say unto you, whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” (Matthew 18.17-18). In other words, we should treat those anathematised by the Church as outside the Church and not deserving the honour of Christians (which is not to say, of course, that we should not pray for their eventual return). And Holy Tradition makes it crystal clear that those cast out in this way have no sacraments (Apostolic canons 46 and 47).

The nuns of Diveyevo are in Gods hands. It is enough that you have received the testimony of the Church and know what course to take just as Noah left even little children behind.

Waldemar · Post by **Waldemar** » Sun 23 May 2004 9:16 pm

The nuns of Diveyevo are in Gods hands.

But not in His Church?

OOD, you are sure in the knowledge that you yourself are in the Church with the same surety that the spiritual daughters of St. Seraphim of Sarov are not in the Church?

From whence cometh your "blessed assurance," your ability to judge this righteous judgement that belongs to the Righteous Judge alone?

Surely this is not one of the qualifications for the job of Euphrosynos Cafe moderator?

If this has been a subject that has been written about exhaustively, please forgive me. I do not follow every discussion.

OrthodoxyOrDeath · Post by **OrthodoxyOrDeath** » Sun 23 May 2004 10:34 pm

The subject has been written about exhaustively by the Fathers of the Church. I am assured in as much as I have read the fathers, who have been handed the deposit of Faith. Or if not the Holy Fathers of the Church, then by what criteria would you propose?