Answer Regarding Homosexuality

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.
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Justin Kissel

Answer Regarding Homosexuality

Post by Justin Kissel »

Elsewhere someone made some comments about this document, which I linked to on my blog. There isn't enough space in the comments section to answer, so I decided to post it here.

mwoerl,

The Orthodox position is much more intricate than you are giving it credit for. Perhaps I should have given a link that also explains the "other side" or Orthodox thought. Orthodoxy does not say "if you weren't married in the Church, you aren't really married, and you are living in fornication". What it says is that if you weren't married in the Church, you don't have a sacramental marriage, and therefore are not accessible to the same type of grace that sacramentally married couples would be. There was a controversy pretty early on in the Church involving marriage. In the Roman empire, the wife would take on the social status of her husband. At the time, wealthy Christian women were falling in love with slaves, but were unwilling to marry them (which would mean that they would sink to their social status). Therefore, they simply lived with the guys. The Pope of Rome, out of condescension, permitted the marriages because he believed that to do otherwise would do even more harm. However, many Christians disagreed.

Why? Why couldn't the Church just bless the marriage? The answer (to that question, and also to your concerns) is that, while the Orthodox Church requires one to be married in the Church for it to be a sacramental marriage, the Orthodox Church nonetheless recognizes the civil law/state's place in recognizing marriages. So, today, if someone is married (for instance) before a justice of the peace and never has their marriage blessed, that person will not be considered sacramentally married, but I don't know of a priest who would say that they are not married at all and are shacking up.

Obviously homosexuality is not as widespread as homosexuals themselves say (they say 10% of the population, it's probably more like 1 or 2%). However, it is a problem. If you polled all the guys in my high school class, I'd be willing to bet that 3/4 of them (or more) would be perfectly fine with the idea of a lesbian wedding. If anything, they'd be turned on by it. This is a problem that effects the souls of millions around the world today, and it will continue to effect the lives of countless more souls tomorrow unless people take a stand today. I'm not worried about a homosexual takeover or anything like that; I'm worried about Joe Ordinary, who has a "homosexual orientation". I don't want anything bad to happen to Joe Ordinary come judgment day, and I've read homosexual materials and know that they distort Scripture verses so that Joe Ordinary the homosexual thinks that he's doing nothing wrong.

I also find your attitude towards the bishops somewhat shocking. When did they say that they were perfect? It is their duty to protect their flock, whether they are perfect or not. I won't say more than that, as I'm getting very close to saying some words I'd regret :) I suggest we all examine what "state" we're in...

Etienne
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Post by Etienne »

Homosexuality seems to draw, as a subject, extreme reactions. Homosexual acts are clearly sinful, as are any sexual act outside marriage. Some of the reaction and posturing on both sides - for & against - seem to stem from purely personal feelings on the matter.

As an aside, I saw a newspaper photo of a (western) clergyman holding a placard with the inscription, "God hates faggots". This puzzled me for a while. (Here I should explain that in England's west midlands, faggots are an offal based food like haggis). For a moment I thought he might belong to some vegetarian sect!

When I looked at the photograph more closely I then saw the expression of hatred on that clergyman's face. There is a small, erudite and articulate group campaigning on homosexual 'rights'. There are those equally who simply find this activity repulsive.

A truly Christian approach to the issue surely is something different again, although clear and unequivocal?

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

The Orthodox teaching on the matter is clear and unequivocal, there is no sex outside of marriage, not even kissing, and the Church does not marry homosexuals.

Conclusion: There are no homosexuals in communion with the Church.

But God loves homosexuals, let me assure you of that. And any “clergy” saying otherwise is playing into the hands of the demons as much as any "faggot".

bogoliubtsy
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Post by bogoliubtsy »

OrthodoxyOrDeath wrote:

The Orthodox teaching on the matter is clear and unequivocal, there is no sex outside of marriage, not even kissing, and the Church does not marry homosexuals.

Conclusion: There are no homosexuals in communion with the Church.

But God loves homosexuals, let me assure you of that. And any “clergy” saying otherwise is playing into the hands of the demons as much as any "faggot".

No kissing outside marriage? What about a pashal kiss?

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Tessa
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Post by Tessa »

What KIND of kissing? Serbs kiss everyone three times. I am sure you mean "french" kissing.

Господе Исусе Христа, Синe Божји, Помилуј ме грешну!

Etienne
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Post by Etienne »

Regarding my earlier response, I acknowledged that the Church's teaching is unequivocal; no sex outside marriage.

My point, which I should have made more clearly, is some of the 'heat' around some sins appears to be more readily attributable to a 'personal' revulsion rather than upholding the Church's teaching. The danger in that may be overlooking our sins.

In the UK the ready acceptance of an active homosexual lifestyle is widespread. The Blair government goes out of its' way to facilitate homosexual 'rights'. Any teaching that makes followers of alternate 'lifestyles' feel uncomfortable or of less value is out. To talk of one's husband or wife draws disapproving looks, they are your partner - just like the unmarried couple next door and the 'homosexual' couple over the road. The Royal Family have long accepted 'homosexual' activity by their servants.

Despite the controvesy within the Church of England over 'homosexual' bishops, acceptance and more is a growing phenomena in one religious community after another. Diversity is welcome - provided it accepts the norms of a superior moral code! I have even heard of one Orthodox priest comforting a penitent by referring to the 'special' relationship between Our Lord and the Apostle John!

I do not want to be associated with those who 'hate' this or that group, but do want to be free to follow a life of Christian struggle - without compromise - something that may be very difficult in the not too distant future

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

I'd like to say a bit more later, but for now, bogo, I think (?) that OOD was talking about male/female kissing as you might get when you put two 18 year old American youths on a date together. I've seen (slavic) canons that give penances for that type of kissing. I don't think he was talking about a kiss of peace or brotherhood, as even the Scripture tells people to do.

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