Lord Have Mercy!

[romiosini]

Lord Have Mercy!

[Daisy]

I do not think that issues such as a calender are a basis for declaring someone to be anathema. I absolutely loathe the pettiness with which fellow Orthodox Christians harang each other when really we should be turning our minds to more important matters. It is the one thing that really makes me think twice about church and religion. Of course the simple fact that I believe in God means I won't abandon the church but it puts me off so much that people can behave so badly towards each other. Thankyou for making me feel sane.

[Justin Kissel]

I think it's interesting that you brought up Saint Basil, since he multiplied bishoprics, so as to have more political control, so as to be able to better fight heresy. Saint Basil even forced Saint Gregory the Theologian (almost against his will) to become a bishop, so that Saint Basil's position would be more secure. If he did the same things today, would we call him someone too worried about politics and someone who didn't have enough faith that God's will would be done? I agree that today's situation can be depressing... upon first notice. Sooner or later you realise, though, that today's situation is no different than most other centuries. We weren't out of the Apostolic age yet and already Saints John, Peter, Paul, etc. were writing against those who claimed to be Christian but were not. It is said that "without struggles, there is no salvation". We shouldn't assume that "struggle" always means illness or persecution. The Fathers universally identified the "gates of hades" with heresies and heretics, and while the gates of hades can't prevail (according to our Lord's most divine prophecy), they can sometimes appear to come close to prevailing (since God lets us experience trials, and allowed us a most wonderful gift: the ability to fail). This, anyway, is what I try to keep in mind when I think of all the divisions (which, like I said, I agree can be depressing when you first start realising how many divisions there are). That's my completely honest answer

[romiosini]

Lord Have Mercy!

[George Australia]

Dear in Christ romiosini,
I can only answer from my own experience and understanding. But I hope that my experience and understanding incorporate what I have received from the Living Tradition of the Fathers and Mothers of the Church with whom I've had contact.

My question is, can anyone actually believe, this faith we have from the Apostles and from the Holy Fathers be broken?

The Holy Apostolic Tradition is a Living Tradition. It is passed from person to person in the same way that the Holy Fire is passed from person to person at Pascha. If someone pulls out his Bic lighter and lights his own candle during the ceremony of the Holy Fire then passes it on to others, he has not "broken" the passing on of the Holy Fire, but has introduced something foreign to it. In the same way, the Living Apostolic Tradition will continue until the end of the Age as Our Lord has promised, but this Apostolic Tradition also tells us that heresy and apostasy will also plague the world and cause many to fall away from the Undivided Church (e.g. I John 2:18-19).

Can anyone really say or claim or judge there is no Grace within Orthodoxy because of certain actions of bishops?

No one can ever say that there is no grace in Orthodoxy. But when you say Orthodoxy, do you mean the same thing this word means (i.e. "The Correct/Upright - Opinon/worship") or do you simply mean a collective of people under a certain bishop who claim the title "Orthodox"? Anyone can, (and many do) use the title "Orthodox", some even can trace Apostolic Succession. I am assuming, however, that when you use the word "Orthodox Church", you are referring to the "Canonical" Orthodox Churches, ie, in Communion with the Patriarchates, or having originated from them. In this, I am using the word "Canonical" in a much broader sense than simply "in communion with the Patriarchates". "Canonical" is not limited to the definition "in communion with the Patriarchates".
The Church always was, and always will be undivided, and there seems to be three only possible positions in relation to the Church:
(1) To be a functioning member of Church in Eucharistic Communion with her.
(2) To be an ailing or diseased member of the Church.
(3) To be seperated from the Church.

In the first and second, Grace of Mysteries is present, in the third, it is absent. In the case of Canonical Orthodox Churches, many of those in Communion with the Patriarchates seem to fall into the second category because of some of their teachings, for example, the de facto communion of the Antiochian Patriarchate with non-Chaledonians shows that Antioch is ailing; but it says nothing definitive about the presence or absence of Grace in it's Mysteries other than if they continue this course, they will cut themselves off from the Orthodox Church and therefore, Grace will depart from their mysteries.

As for Grace, the Grace imparted in the Mysteries is different from 'general' Grace. The Grace imparted in the Mysteries is imparted in the Mysteries, 'general' Grace is imparted freely by God wherever He wills. They both co-operate and also function seperately. For example, God sent His Grace to the righteous Cornelius (who was unbaptized) to bring him into the Church through the Grace imparted in Baptism ( Acts 10:1 - 48 ). Another example is that the wonderworking relics of Our Father among the Saints, Nicholas of Myrna, are currently in the possession of the roman catholics. No one can say that Grace is absent from the relics of St. Nicholas, but can we say that the baptism, chrisimation, eucharist, holy unction, etc of the roman Catholics impart the same Grace that those of the Orthodox Church do?

I come from the Florinite position of the GOC of Greece which holds that "world Orthodoxy" is currently in the second position described above. It's Mysteries are not Graceless, but in a sense, Grace is departing, and will completely depart from them unless thay change their course which is currently directed towards complete apostasy.

Seriously, for all the people who don't even have the Orthodox Ordination, how can we say he or she isn't Orthodox. Who are we to judge? Regarding, what Orthodoxy is suffering today, is an even greater task and battle for us who truly believe in him. It is a great task to show how obedient we are and not disobedient and disrespectful to any bishop.

In normal circumstances, I would agree with you, but this current crisis in the Church is far from 'normal circumstances'.
There is no room for disrespect in the Church. Love is never disrespectful.
I cannot however, accept that we have no right to respectfully correct an Heriarch when he teaches something contrary to the Orthodox Faith. This is not a right, it is a duty. We are not roman catholics who believe our heirarchs to be "infallible". This applies not only to "world Orthodox" Bishops, but also to Bishops such as those who follow the Matthewite tradion which teach that Grace is absent from every other local Orthodox Church. Both positions are mutually exclusive, and therefore cannot simultaneously be true. In other words, Grace cannot be both present and absent in a local Orthodox Church- only one position can be correct. Although I disagree with the Matthewite's Ecclesiology, I do not hold that Grace is absent from their Mysteries, even though they hold that Grace is absent from the Mysteries of the Church in the Florinite tradition which I follow.

Can anyone say that the relics of Saint Tikhon of Moscow or Sergius of Radonezh are graceless because they are under the jurisdiction of MP??

As I outlined above using the example of the relics of St. Nicholas of Myrna, no one can say this of the relics of St. Tikhon or St Sergius. This is different to saying the MP's Mysteries lack Grace (which they do not lack in my opinion, and I believe, neither in the opinion of the Fathers.)

Is it worth to seperate the faithful because they belong under the jurisdiction of the EP? Or because they use the new calendar?

A temporary break in communion, although tragic, is sometimes necessary. Temporarily cutting off from Eucharistic Communion is one of the ways the Church corrects her members, for example, those who have fallen into serious sins such as fornication are usually given the "epitoimia" or "correction" of exclusion from Holy Communion for a time. This comes from the Orthodox view of sin which is not judicial like the "western" tradition, but views sin (and heresy) as diseases in need of healing and therapy. In the same way, I am not currently in Eucharistic Communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate in an attempt to help correct what I see as an obvious ailment in it, not because I think it lacks Grace.
In itself, the Calendar is not a serious enough issue (I think) to break communion, but there is plenty of evidence that the disagreements this created in the Church and everything which was introduced with the New Calendar have led us to this current crisis of false ecumenism. The sooner we all follow the same calendar again, the better.

In Christ,
George

[romiosini]

Lord Have Mercy!

[George Australia]

You're answers are very until the point were your opinions come in place.

Dear in Christ romiosini,
You asked that we answer with honesty. As I said in the beginning of my post:

I can only answer from my own experience and understanding. But I hope that my experience and understanding incorporate what I have received from the Living Tradition of the Fathers and Mothers of the Church with whom I've had contact.

How else can I answer but from my opinion (which hopefully incorporates that of the Fathers)?
If the Councils condemn some of the teachings of Blessed Augustine and St. Gregory of Nyssa- what of it? How does this contrast with what I am saying? St. Gregory taught some heretical teachings, yet he is still a Saint. I am saying that the Ecumenical Patriarchate is teaching some heretical teachings yet it is still within the Church- what's the difference?
Your Geronta has every right to cry about the current situation in the Church, but I don't think that compromise in matters of Orthodox Faith is the answer. If the entire world accepts false ecumenism for the sake of an appearance of "unity" in order to attract converts, does it make it an Orthodox doctrine? Will Christ praise us on the Day of Judgement for sowing tares among His wheat in the name of "winning converts"?
In Christ,
George