I love reading about the lives of the saints. It's very edifying, and very informative. Saint Justin Popovich called the lives of the saints "applied dogmatics," and I think that's very true. One difficulty I continually run into, however, is when words are put into the mouths of saints that almost certainly weren't spoken by them. Entire speeches, using precise theological terminology, are put into the mouths of saints in some stories. I'm perfectly willing to accept that God might reveal to a person the truth (as he taught Mary of Egypt how to pray, and Scriptural passages, out in the desert). But what gets printed in the hagiographical material isn't the truth that early Christians said (e.g., "Jesus is God"). Rather, the hagiography has the saints making theologically precise statements that couldn't have been made until much later than the saint lived. Am I the only one who has difficulties with this? If not, how does everyone else deal with this? I'm not worried that our traditions are unreliable in general, it just gets to me for some reason. Any thoughts?
When Hagiography Is Anachonistic
Re: When Hagiography Is Anachonistic
Paradosis wrote:I love reading about the lives of the saints. It's very edifying, and very informative. Saint Justin Popovich called the lives of the saints "applied dogmatics," and I think that's very true. One difficulty I continually run into, however, is when words are put into the mouths of saints that almost certainly weren't spoken by them. Entire speeches, using precise theological terminology, are put into the mouths of saints in some stories. I'm perfectly willing to accept that God might reveal to a person the truth (as he taught Mary of Egypt how to pray, and Scriptural passages, out in the desert). But what gets printed in the hagiographical material isn't the truth that early Christians said (e.g., "Jesus is God"). Rather, the hagiography has the saints making theologically precise statements that couldn't have been made until much later than the saint lived. Am I the only one who has difficulties with this? If not, how does everyone else deal with this? I'm not worried that our traditions are unreliable in general, it just gets to me for some reason. Any thoughts?
Justin,
I can't say I have really noticed this, maybe I don't read enough, or maybe I'm just really dense. Could post some short examples?
And on another note, I'm glad to see you back.
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OrthodoxyOrDeath
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Justin Kissel
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Justin Kissel
OOD, Daniel, et al.,
After thinking about it over the weekend, I am hesitant to continue this thread. First, because I think--(you were right)--I overreacted. And second, because it's just a wholly unedifying discussion. Still, I did start the thread, so I'll still post a couple quotes. If you can correct my misunderstandings, I'd be glad to listen--but otherwise, I'd rather just drop the thread. 
Anyway, here's a few examples that I found over the weekend. The book I'm getting these quotes from is The Lives of the Holy Women Martyrs, which is published by Holy Apostles Convent. The first example is from the account of the martyrdoms in 296 AD of Saint Evlampia, and her brother Saint Evalmpios, of Nicomedia. It is recorded that Evlampios said in reply to a governor:
"May it be, O governor, that thou comest to know what is to thine own advantage. Worship the One Tri-Hypostatic God..." - p. 419
The second example is from the account of the martyrdom of Saint Myrope of Chios in c. 250 AD. Myrope is recorded as having said:
"I worship Christ and venerate and adore his image; and I only worship Him as God... for He is the true God, and for our salvation became a true man, at the same time retaining His divinity without changing his nature and essence in the least." - p. 522
The third example is from the account of the martyrdom of Saint Cecilia of Rome in the early third century (c. 222-235 AD). Cecilia is recorded as having said:
"If thou wilt not first cleanse thyself from the defilement of idols, and then be baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity--Father, Son, and of the Holy Spirit--and believe in the One and Tri-Hypostatic God, then thou wilt not be vouchsafed to behold His fiery angels." - p. 482
A final example is from the account of the martyrdom of Saint Katherine of Alexandria in the early fourth century (c. 306-312 AD). Saint Katherine is recorded as having said:
"Hear the unfeigned words of Apollo who, against his own will, confessed the passionless God, constrained by His almighty power: 'The One Who suffered is a heavenly Trinal Radiance. he that suffered is God, though divinity was passionless. At the same time, He had a mortal body, yet was immortal. He is God and man. He bore mortality, the Cross, mockings, and burial,...' and so forth. Thus, Apollo admitted that Christ is the true God and co-eternal with the unoriginate Father, Who is the origin, source, and foundation of all good things. This true God... being co-essential with the Father, He became man for us and walked on earth." - p. 506