Serge & Mr. Zollars' discussion of their Churches

[Joe Zollars]

Serge, is it apropriate to hijack this thread?

Nicholas Zollars

[Serge]

That answer, NZ, proves what I thought - you're just pretending to belong to ROAC to get attention online. Grow up!

[Joe Zollars]

I have waited to reply until now because I felt your hijacking of the fatima thread was innapropriate. I have said all by private message that I am going to say. It would be a pointless waste of electrons and cluttering of this excellent forum to do otherwise. Nuff said.

Nicholas Zollars

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Even though sometimes we do things quite silly, especially the younger we are, it all works to a purpose. I cannot count on all of my toes and fingers how many times I've sought the attention of others, and for stupid things too.

But I believe Joe as he has shared with me details in private.

But even if not true, it shouldn't bother anyone with a personal matter such as this. In fact, if you believe he just wants attention, the loving thing to do would be to give it.

[Serge]

Even though sometimes we do things quite silly, especially the younger we are, it all works to a purpose. I cannot count on all of my toes and fingers how many times I've sought the attention of others, and for stupid things too.

But I believe Joe as he has shared with me details in private.

But even if not true, it shouldn't bother anyone with a personal matter such as this. In fact, if you believe he just wants attention, the loving thing to do would be to give it.

I understand your point but don't think any Orthodox priest in person, or any other reputable minister of religion, would condone this kind of game-playing with 'holy things', including basically lying - bragging about an imaginary affiliation.

[Liudmilla]

Serge:
I would suggest that it's time you dropped this argument. You are not presenting yourself in the best of lights and some of what you say is most un-Christ like.

There is a russian word --оправдание -- I would suggest you are guilty of this. (I think you speak the tongue-Im sorry if I'm wrong.)

So please....just drop this..

Thank you...Mila :ohvey:

[priestmark]

I ... don't think any Orthodox priest in person, or any other reputable minister of religion, would condone this kind of game-playing with 'holy things', including basically lying - bragging about an imaginary affiliation.

What I call "arm's length" orthodoxy is the situation for many people who find themselves caught up with some in the ranks of "minister of religion" who find 'affiliates' amongst those who prefer being just out of reach - far enough away that they are not at risk of really being known by /accountable to anyone in this world but themselves. "Obedience is life", but what appears to have great rhetorical depth in fact often runs quite shallow from the perspective of real interactions.

Kind of like the contrast between book learnin' and getting your hands dirty. The former is quite an easy path and the universities are full of erudite masters of that realm, but you have to look with a different, experienced, eye to see the opportunities for authentic struggle and progress in a real circumstance. But this latter requires greater submission of self-will, and this is very difficult. Again the rhetoric says this struggle is important, but arm's length circumstances of our own making provide the excuse to avoid the reality.

This may sound pointedly relevant to Joe / Nicholas, but this is not at all the case. This, my general thesis re "arm's length spirituality", is one of my strongest pet peeves and it applies firstly to myself, but also to many people dear to me besides Joe, both near and far. I feel like I can't remain publically silent any longer as more and more people (see orthodox-tradition) reveal themselves to be in this same spiritually dangerous circumstance in a variety of jurisdictions.

The worldy intensity of discussions of eccelesiology and history and politics are an aspect of one pole of this syndrome. Communal prayer (where two or three are gathered) and other invisible praxis are the heart of what is missing. Again, I accuse myself in this regard firstly. An uncompromising face is shown to the world, but the inner struggle with personal compromise has to be one cause of the external vehemence which is somehow psychologically (but not healthily) balancing internally.

The dogmatic fervor with which it is so easy to post on the internet is due in large part to this same disconnectedness. No one would speak to each other in person as we sometimes do on this and other mailing lists. I claim some experience in this area. The ORTHODOX list and its precursor are nearly 20 years old now. (No where else before this forum - and very briefly on orthodox-tradition - have I found the "living room discussion" feel that characterized the early days of the ORTHODOX list. Savor it while you can because every free forum is soon found by those who wish to manipulate or dominate. May God protect this forum from the behind-the-scenes machinations so common elsewhere.)

If I may - in the spirit of a friendly exchange of ideas, I would like to offer a few more thoughts. One cannot be made a catchechumen over the phone. There must be a real, not philosphical, relationship. Confession over the phone or by e-mail is also a severe impediment. With the help of employer-required attendance at training last week I found myself in Detroit. I stayed over through Sunday so I could - in person - confess to, and hear the confession of a spiritual brother (mutual spiritual son to our beloved Hieromonk Kallistos who reposed 11 years ago Tuesday). Such encounters are indispensible.

By way of background my family lived in Indiana 290 miles from the parish where we were baptised and to which we commuted for seven years (20,000 miles a year just to and from church). I do not hold myself up as any example, but having lived a life in physical separation from a local parish I do have the experience to speak boldly about the risks and what must be done to survive the very real temptations. I won't go into details here, but I could tell you volumes about the appearances and reality of such temptations. Don't voluntarily put yourself in such a situation, and if you find yourself there involuntarily then get out as soon as possible.

Do not languish in separation. The great risk is that you will have only a distant arm's-length relationship which is ultimately dependent on self-awareness and self-correction. That is the way of deception, especially for the self-willed (who isn't?) and all those new to Orthodoxy. It is for similar reasons that monastics too must have received a special blessing to live in isolation. Do they always? I think there is a strong correlation between many arm's-length behaviours.

o.M