A Conversation on Modernism

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Logos
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Post by Logos »

The first problem relating to modernism is the alarming abuse of the concept of "economy" by local Priests, and sometimes even Bishops. This can be seen in a number of areas, two of which I'll identify. The first example is the moral lapse regarding the use of contraception, which was clearly condemned by everyone before the 20th century. (Amazingly, some Priests and Bishops don't even pretend to allow it's use through economy anymore, but simply say that whoever wants to use it may use it, and that the Church has never considered such things it's business.) The second abuse of economy that is becoming all too common in certain jurisdictions is the allowance of Orthodox Christians to attend heterodox services, and even receive communion at them.

The second problem relating to modernism, or perhaps just relating to the western culture in general, is the minimalism of faith and widespread loss of asceticism. It is not clear which had more of an effect, some jurisdiction's conscious attempts to "modernise," or simply the influence of Western Society as a whole. Whatever the cause, fasting has been relaxed and even sometimes dropped, preaching of the blessedness of poverty and giving alms is rarely heard, preaching of virginity and monasticism as a higher path is almost non-existent, vigils are almost non-existent, etc. Standing a long time has simply been done away with by bringing in pews, and even with the pews there is still sufficient enough reasons, apparently, to cut the length of the services. Depriving ourselves of the creature comforts, once the stated goal for every Christian (even if it didn't happen in practice), has become non-existent, and isn't even stated as a goal anymore; now it's just "for the monks".

The third problem relating to modernism and western society is the loss of the Patristic mindset, and adoption of the humanistic, modernist mindset. For example, some groups are ridiculed and mocked for "focusing on the externals"; while unfortunately all too many groups cast off these "externals," but by doing so unwittingly throw away many grace-bestowing traditions that they so desperately now need. They think they have thrown out "man made" traditions, but what they have really done is cut out God-man delivered traditions (this is usually done by making a distinction between "tradition with a small t" and "Tradition with a big T"). They have unwittingly thrown the baby out with the bath water, when all they thought they were doing was throwing out dirty bath water. What is left is a humanistic, intellectualized system of belief. Orthodoxy has become complacent regarding social issues such as abortion, evil television shows, and so forth. Not only do they not speak in the same spirit as the Fathers, but they find the words of the Fathers "offensive" and "extremist," or perhaps just "outdated" and "of a less sophisticated and informed time". These Orthodox no longer hold to traditions of apostolic origin, as these are ignorantly labled "little t traditions". At a time when Orthodoxy should be taking a maximalist approach and embracing everything we can take from the Fathers, we are instead attempting to "update" and "modernise," to "adapt to the culture" (as opposed to transcending it).

Paradosis, not to put you on the spot, but do you have specific examples of Bishops and priests of doing these things? I am trying examples of these. Anyway, I am suprised that female ordination is even being considered. Many protestants have come to Orthodoxy for many reasons including the ordination of women. Clearly, the WCC is influencing Orthodoxy. Here is my question: why is it that our Bishops and Patriarchs have such an inferiority complex when it comes to Orthodoxy? Why are they afraid to be Orthodox? The disease of our time is to say that 'I'm okay your okay.' Nobody wants to be intolerant, and everyone wants to get along with everyone else at the cost of the Truth. Getting along is more important than the straight and narrow path. I think what has hurt the US is the lack of Orthodox monasticism here in this country.

I think if anything it depends on the individual church as to how modern it is. By this, I currently attend an OCA church, yet we do not have pews, the priest makes converts recant their heresies at Chrismation, etc. I would say that this church is more traditional. I have been to a couple of other churches, Greek churches, that are modern in their style. However, I have heard from people that there are traditional Greek churches out there.

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Regarding things like contraception, just about all Antiochian Priests allow contraception now, and most Greeks do as well. I know a Greek Sunday School teacher (an American convert) who was rather befuddled that anyone would even question the use of contraception. "It's up to each individual couple to make this decision after much prayer," she said (to paraphrase), "that's what our Priest told us." I've also seen articles online that essentially said that "Confessors had never delved into people's sexual lives before," which, if nothing else, shows a grave lack of knowledge of how confession went on in past centuries. To be perfectly honest, I don't recall right now a specific instance of a bishop taking this stand with contraception, I can only assume that I had heard about something at the time and so included them in with the Priests.

Regarding the attendance of heterdox services, I first encountered this when talking at length with an educated--if slightly unorthodox--fellow in a chat program. Apparently the local Orthodox parish that was close to him wasn't to his taste, so he got permission from his (Antiochian) Priest to attend an Anglican parish, and he even partook of communion there. When I questioned him further on this he said that not only was his Priest ok with this, but that his Priest had said that he knew a number of Greek Priests who also allowed Greeks to go to Anglican Churches when "it wasn't convenient" to go to an Orthodox Church. I've come across this phenomenon in talking with other people online; they--and their Priest--seem to not be aware of the canonical regulations regarding such practices... or perhaps they just feel them outdated or "for use in another context" (one of the signs of the current modernistic trend. That isn't to say that context isn't important, but in this case it certainly isn't different enough to allow disregarding the relevant canons).

I'm sure there are indeed traditional Serbian, Greek, and maybe even Antiochian parishes. Still, I worry about the abuses that are creeping in, and the directions being taken. The OCA seems to be the best of the groups in SCOBA, thus far, in resisting modernism, I hope they can continue to resist (and I know some very traditional Priests in the OCA)

Sorry I can't be of more help in providing direct links or articles to "violations". As I said in my other post, I had written that stuff for "my own personal use, sort of a way to gauge where my own mind/heart was," (I find that I can think things out more clearly and thoroughly if I write them down... or type them, in this case) I didn't record or save links to any specific instances.

Logos
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Post by Logos »

I have heard those same things Paradosis in particular about the Antiochians and the Greeks. It pains me to see the Greek Orthodox in America go that way, since I am a cradle born Greek Orthodox.

Nektarios14
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Post by Nektarios14 »

The OCA seems to be the best of the groups in SCOBA, thus far, in resisting modernism, I hope they can continue to resist (and I know some very traditional Priests in the OCA)

What about the Serbians? There is a Serbian women's monastert here in AZ that I have been to and was very impressed by it (please BTW remember these holy nuns in prayer as they need all the help they can get with thier current building project). I that unlike the Greek bishops there is little to no tension between the Serbian Monastics here and the Serbian Bishops (thus I am assuming the bishops are very Traditional). Also isn't St. Herman's in California part of the Serbian jurisdiction now?

Nektarios

Logos
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Post by Logos »

Nektarios, is there a lot of tension between the Greek bishops and Father Ephraim out there in Arizona?

Nektarios14
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Post by Nektarios14 »

Nektarios, is there a lot of tension between the Greek bishops and Father Ephraim out there in Arizona?

From what I do know the bishops haven't given him a dime to build any of his monasteries and REALLY got after the monks for baptizing people after they had already converted. Although they do know that I am a convert (from the Latin "Church") and was only chrismated, but they do not mind at all. The communion is very stable but they do have their little squabbles.

It has been such a great blessing becoming Orthodox living where I do....I had no idea I was living just an hour away from such a great monastery and four hours from another really good monastery. The Lord has done great things for me!

Nektarios

cparks
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St. Herman's

Post by cparks »

Nektarios wrote:

Also isn't St. Herman's in California part of the Serbian jurisdiction now?

Yes. St Paisus used to be in Forestville, CA, up here in my neck of the woods, and came in with that whole group. They left for AZ shortly after they were received, so I only got to go there once. I went up with my priest for the Entrance of the Theotokos. It was a wonderful All Night Vigil and Liturgy.

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