Moderator: Mark Templet
Justin Kissel wrote:Because knowing why the Synod makes the decision that it makes can help avoid scandal.
But we should not speculate about those reasons. That in itself is a scandal.
When the synod publishes it's findings -- they will give the reasons why.
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They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."
Speculation... well we speculate every day on just about every thread, so why draw the line on this subject? I strongly support trying to discuss "just the facts," but any discussion is better than no discussion. And to be honest, I doubt that the Synod will get very detailed about their decision. And also, this doesn't take into account that there are people who are caught in a bind right now. What if the Synod takes a year to do an investigation and decide? What do the various members of ROAC in America, Bulgaria, etc. do until then? No, Tom, I must admit that I very very strongly disagree with this "let's wait for the Council (or synod decision)" mentality that is apparently being applied more and more frequently now. Certainly that decision will be authoritative and binding... but until then, many people cannot just be content to sit on their hands. The canons, in fact, instruct to do otherwise. Met. Valentine has said some rather astounding things, and now Fr. John has brought up a charge of not only breaking many canons, but of Met. Valentine affirming heresy. This is not an issue that can be left only to the bishops to decide, in whatever month (or year) they complete their investigation. If the bishops decide in a way contrary to what some of the laity decided, then it will be for the laity to seek forgiveness and conform their views to that of the synod. Until such a time, though, the laity must do something. Especially with charges of heresy floating around.
Justin Kissel wrote:What if the Synod takes a year to do an investigation and decide? What do the various members of ROAC in America, Bulgaria, etc. do until then?
Contemplate on what they have gotten themselves into. Pray, ask forgiveness, remove themselves from schism, and go back to the ROCOR and place themselves under repsectable Orthodox bishops who look to UNITE the faithful and not drive them apart.
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They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."
Tom:
Normally, I tend to agree with you, but in this situation what you propose is a bit unrealistic and simplistic. These people made a choice. For them it was the right choice at the time. Now their choice is being tested in fire. Even here on this very public forum. Their pain and fustration is very real, they have to deal with that and everything else that goes with it.
It's easy to say, "oops, I made a mistake...take me back". The real test of faith is whether you stay through the storm and come out the other side with your faith intact.
We have to give them a chance to grapple with their problem , later when things appear in a different light, then we can offer them another choice.... whatever it might be and with whomever it might be. All you can do for now is pray for them.
"I told you so" never helped anyone in any positive way. I think this is true for everyone here.
miriam
We have to give them a chance to grapple with their problem , later when things appear in a different light, then we can offer them another choice.... whatever it might be and with whomever it might be.
I, and am sure many, appreciate the call for charity here. It is never a pleasant thing when ones own bishop is involved or associated with a scandal.
And to say that this is unique to ROAC or any cause to covert from Orthodoxy to ecumenism is a very ridiculous notion. Schismatics have more in common with the ecumenists than they do the genuine Orthodox. They are of the same stock: One rebelling against the faith, the other rebelling against the bishops.
The upstart Gregory has succesfully been tearing at the fabric of the Church (just like the ecumenists) for the last 15 years precisley because people are unaware of his dark history. This must change or we will see it all again in another 2 years.
Justin Kissel wrote:And also, this doesn't take into account that there are people who are caught in a bind right now. What if the Synod takes a year to do an investigation and decide? What do the various members of ROAC in America, Bulgaria, etc. do until then?
In America? That's easy: continue to go to church as before.
In Bulgaria? That's more of a problem. The evidence is right out in the open that Gregory refuses to submit to discipline and is ordaining deacons against the orders of his primate and his synod.
The thing is, none of this is exactly new. There's never been a lack of evidence that Gregory was ambitious for a miter. As far as the theological dispute is concerned, I note that Valentine is in particular rejected views on rechrismation that are dear to many in this forum. But that leaves one with not much of a choice, doesn't it?
