Holy Transfiguration Monastary

News about traditional Orthodox monastics and how these monks and nuns are living out their vocations in monasteries and convents. All Forum Rules apply.


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Грешник
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Post by Грешник »

OOD,

I am confused by your post.

This is a good example of someone who has already decided matters under the influence of the passions that he must in some way denounce a group for personal reasons.

I do not see what you are getting at here. I am confused as to wether this post was meant for me, about me, or about someone else. If in fact this post was made about me, then you are sorely mistaken. I have no sour feelings towards any members of the ROCOR, in fact many of my close friends and contacts are wthin the ROCOR. I do not agree with their stances on a few things so I stay out of the Ecclesiastical affairs of their Church but that in no way affects my feelings for people who commune with them.

I say this because this post exhibits a clear mishandling of some very commonly known facts, which could have easily been discovered with the most inept research.

The decisions I have made were made because of the research I did prior to even knowing that ROAC existed. I seriously looked into matters in regards to the ROCOR, but there was a shallowness ot many of the answers I asked in regars to Eccumenism, Monophysites, etc. And so with this information I went on my way in search of Truth.

One would think that to say it was "from a ROCOR priest" is a cheap way to give credit where none is deserved.

This is truly perplexing to me. I said this precisely because this is all that I know. The gentleman who write to me originally and told me to do some research only told me that the information he received and was relaying to me came from "a ROCOR priest". They did not give me the opportunity to ask who, or get any information that would allow me to go right to the source. This is all that I know of this person, this priest in question, so this is what I responded to when Fr. Mark asked me if it was a ROCOR priest. I responded in the affirmative.

:::Staring at the opn can of worms on the floor beside me...:::

Juvenaly

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Juvenaly,

There are no worms. :)

This was in no way directed at you, I am sorry I didn't make that distinction more clear. I understood you simply passed this on. I did not even mean this to be directed at the person who gave you the information; I was just commenting to people on the forum regards these rumors, thats all.

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Post by Грешник »

OOD,

It's ok. The stores and rumors are just getting old. Very old, very fast. Those who do not understand what is truly going on will do anything they can from needing ot look around and ask questions. Very sad situation.

Juvenaly

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Post by priestmark »

Juvenaly wrote:

The information indeed came from a ROCA priest, as I was told by the author of the poost to me.

"Indeed"? as was told you by which reliable source? "Indeed" would imply some verification, but all you have done is repeat the calumny of this provably inaccurate and apparently thoroughly confused source.

Let's see, Juvenaly repeated rumors he heard from some undiscerning person, and Juvenaly's source of this gossip claims that he was also just repeating gossip told to him, and by the way it was a ROCA priest who is the source of all this scandalizing.

Gee, why should I doubt any of this?

How come Fr George knew more 'facts' than Juvenaly posted (about this reportedly coming from a ROCA priest) but in his obvious beckstage communications didn't preemptively "clear up" all this rubbish for Juvenaly?

Indeed something is very fishy. I've seen this tactic more than once before. Shame! or as the russians say: Stidno!

o. Mark

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Post by Грешник »

Father Mark,

The reason Fr. George "knew more" is that after I posted the commentary to the Cafe I told him of the situation seeing that it involves him and the ROAC. He just happened to be the first person to respond.

I posted this information as I was told by Orthodox Learner, who told me of this information via his confessor. There, now all is out in the open.


The only thing I will say at this point, even though I had a whole three paragraphs of response originally written is this. If you have any questions we have the words printed aboce I suggest that if you need any answers you call Dormition Skete. I tried to answer questions posed ot me by another and it seems that no matter who seeks information on the ROAC there is an army with arsenal who is ready ot attack them.

This is my suggestion but I refuse to answer any more questions on this topic.

I am sorry that things have gotten to this point.

Juvenaly

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Post by priestmark »

Since Matushka Ann has come out again (about laptop theologians http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... ght=#11413), so will I since we seem to be on the same wavelength (posting that which I sat on for a day):

Juvenaly wrote:

The reason Fr. George "knew more" is that after I posted the commentary to the Cafe I told him of the situation seeing that it involves him and the ROAC. He just happened to be the first person to respond.

The original "slanderous posting" was like the set-up, and the following was like the payoff. Where's the rim-shot in this vaudeville? :|

Hegumen George wrote:

The level of misinformation never ceases to increase coming from the ROCA about our Church, and that is because more and more people are waking up and realizing that the ROCA is living on a legacy that it has betrayed. I don't know if the case here is simply that the priest had no idea what he was talking about, or the poster simply convoluted everything the priest told him.

I am inclined to believe that all communications leading up to this thread were corrupted. The ROCOR priest (who reportedly encourages his inquirers to join the Antiochians :? :shock: ) may have had everything straight in his mind, but when he communicated to his inquirer about all the scandalous stuff in ROCie (the only place where Boston/HTM and Jerusalem connections both seem to exist) it maybe got transferred to ROAC in the confusion. Otherwise why wouldn't the scandalous stuff in ROAC have been mentioned (unless filtered out and confused by the next step in the communication)? Then this mixed up information got passed on as a quotation (even though originally private) to the larger world by someone who, in spite of now being much closer to his spiritual home in Colorado, didn't first ask them about it (but now refers all 'questions' about his posting to them - hmmm - as Michael Woerl might have said if he were still around, can this get any stranger?).

Juvenaly wrote:

I posted this information as I was told by Orthodox Learner, who told me of this information via his confessor. There, now all is out in the open.

First of all, I don't believe this source is even a catechumen. His loose use elsewhere on this Forum of "spiritual father" and Juvenaly's loose use here of "confessor" are both misplaced. A characteristic of this particular forum continues to be the preponderance of the undiscerning perspective of catechumens and even pre-catechumens. Considering its history (founded before Nicholas was Orthodox) I suppose this is not surprizing, but it still feels more like a summer camp taken over by the kids.

Juvenaly wrote:

I am sorry that things have gotten to this point.

Things had no where else to go after you and Fr George dropped such a cluster bomb.

But where did this and all such stuff really start?

I believe this whole thread is some of the best evidence around for why priests should not be focusing on ecclesiology with their inquirers and catechumens. Such fare is an interesting bait that can hook the inexperienced (and may be all that some groups have going for them), but it is also fodder for extremism. It can quickly lead some - especially the legalistic and rationalistic who are looking to classify everything - to embrace a context provided by surrogates who do have actual memories of the past - which is perhaps all that can be grasped from the confusing mess of scandalous accounts. It leads others right out of the Church or into the arms of one of the modernist jurisdictions that have learned to grow by not scandalizing anyone (except traditionalists). Even time-worn veterans who get wrapped up in the history of scandal and the sins of clergy and come to identify Church with such sins, can begin to fall away - distancing oneself (beginning with 'arm's length').

A few years ago several groups came into ROCOR from world orthodoxy for reasons known to them (I never figured out what they had in common with the reality of the ROCA they eventually had to face - which led them to move on again). Some members of those parishes, and their missions, have come to our church as visitors. I was surprised when they expressed thanks for the normalcy of our talk at Trapeza, so I asked what they meant. It was reported that no "coffee hour" was complete without their priest or deacon stirring the pot about other jurisdictions, and even other ROCA parishes that were different from them. I know this syndrome very well from visiting nearby parishes like this, and even having to deal first-hand with similarly enamoured people after moving here. It's truly hard to stop such a steamroller of a topic when it is raised repeatedly by someone. Such is the strength of this hook for the unsuspecting.

It is what my departed spiritual father (Greek, but not HTM) described as being a hallmark of Boston / HTM. But it is also the hallmark of those I know who accuse priests that disagree with them of being influenced by Boston even when they have absolutely no previous association at all (seen just this week on orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups by someone who wasn't even orthodox when Boston was in ROCA and therefore has no "memory" - see below). I agree with Fr Alexis Duncan http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox- ... ssage/2400 that some in the new-ROCOR "constantly harp on the influence of the Bostonites" as a straw-man. Slander is an effective weapon. Perhaps the priest who is the orignal source of the slanderous information is caught up in this "blame the Boston ecclesiology" tactic. Ecclesiology may be the definer of a battle line, but it is not the Faith! If your church life has more to do with thoughts on ecclesiology and the errors of others and not solely on personal repentance and changing oneself, then "you may be a red-neck" (sorry too much Jeff Foxworthy).

An emigre priest was recently expounding on how he knows the history, but doesn't understand some things people in America talk about because he wasn't here to experience it at that time. So while he may know about an event, he says it is inadequate because he "doesn't remember." The phrase "red neck" has a meaning that Jeff Foxworthy is too young to "remember", but those of us who were of age and different in the '60s shudder at the connotations. It is not a pleasant memory. Living less than 50 miles from Muskogee during Vietnam, I understood the pride expressed at being an "Okie from Muskogee" as a threat to my own personal safety. So when I say "red-neck" above, I mean someone who is overly judgemental of differences, even approaching strident intolerance.

I propose to those of you new to Orthodoxy this simple possibility. Ignore anything you don't "remember". Maybe not ignore, but don't allow it to become part of a collective memory which you personally don't really have. At least relegate it, because 'history' can be formative and manipulative when you buy into it - even when its not true. History is always biased somewhat (let alone rumor and slander) in the telling thereof. So become not like a historian, but like a child. Seek instruction, don't give it. God protects the little ones who place their full trust in Him. Experience what Orthodoxy has to offer and develop your own set of first hand experiences and memories. Of course that means you will have to have actual church experiences, and not just read about things and cogitate about them, or worse, seek instruction here from other inquirers. Being at arm's length just won't cut it. You have to do Orthodoxy.

o.M

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The only ROAC HTM connection is....

Post by Matushka Anna »

Dear Juvenaly,

The thing you originally posted makes no sense, either logically or gramatically. ("Deflocked"??)

A ROCOR member would not consider Fr. Gregory Abu Asali a bishop because the former Vladyka Valentine was defrocked, although alas NOT "deflocked," by the Synod of Bishops for serving under suspension, in accordance with ROCOR's bylaws.

The only HTM-ROAC connection that I know is that Fr. Gregory, now styling himself Bishop Gregory, received his theological and monastic training at Holy Transfiguration Monastery and no place else. He left HTM because of improprieties there, as is proper, but he didn't go to any other monastic institution or seminary for formation, as far as I know.

Much is made of the morals charges against Fr. Panteleimon (Metropoulis), the founder of HTM, which were being investigated when HTM left ROCOR in 1986. Less is known of the investigation into violations of proper liturgical life. For example, ROCOR policy was to receive baptised Orthodox Christians from other jurisdictions through confession and communion, but Holy Transfiguration Monastery and the clergy under their direction in Toronto and other places insisted on receiving Greek Archdiocese members through chrismation. This is disobedience. It's also bad theology. The late Met. Philaret said, in my father's livingroom and in Fr. Panteleimon's presence, that he would NEVER say that another Orthodox Church lacks grace. But such is the underlying assumption of such an act. Plus, in so doing, priests take on the moral authority of the bishop. This is a usurpation of Grace and power. The moral charges attracted the most attention, both from indignant monastery supporters and from saddened former monastery supporters.

Holy Transfiguraion Monastery also has a tradition of long "open letters" excuriating some of our bishops, praising others, and raising questions about episcopal and priestly conduct in the forum of public opinion, where the consequences are the winning of minds, rather than in the proper forum for accusations. The proper forum for accusations is ecclesiastical court, where the innocent are exhonerated and the guilty face stiff penalties -- those found to do wrong are corrected, while if the accused is found innocent, false accusers can be defrocked or excommunicated. Open letters, the predecessor of modern internet diatribes, offer the accuser the freedom to state what he likes without fear of consequences. It is not the Orthodox Way.

Holy Transfiguration Monastery has another "tradition," that of shucking off bishops as they become inconvenient. I lost track a few jurisdictions ago, but they left the Greek Archdiocese, and Fr. Panteleimon was ordained by someone in Jerusalem, sought refuge in ROCOR from 1968-1986, then joined Met. Akakios and Gabriel, whom they had excorriated in an article in "The Orthodox Word," then left them for another set of Greek bishops (Met. Auxentios of ??), who ordained enough HTM clergy bishops that now they don't need any Greeks. Not sure who they're with now.

Likewise, Fr. Gregory left the Antiochians for ROCOR, ROCOR for Archbishop Chrysostomos of Athens, Abp. Chrysostomos for Met. Kallinikos of the Lone Islands, and left Met. Kallinikos for the defrocked bishop Valentine of Suzdal.

It's true the the Moscow Patriarchate had defrocked bishop Valentine, but I don't know if that's before he left them or after. At the time he was received, I understood, rightly or otherwise, that the defrocking had been considered retalitory for leaving. But he didn't leave ROCOR over Met. Cyprian and his ecclesiology --I beleive we were already in communion with met. Cyprian when Bp. Valentine sought to join ROCOR. Whatever his reasons were (and the Synod summoned him to explain just what they might be when he "walled himself off,"), we may never know. But they can't be because we were in communion with someone whom we were already in communion with when he joined us. The Synod of Bishops whose protection he sought asked him to come explain why he would no longer acknowledge them. He refused. They suspended him pending investigation. He served under suspension. That's enough to get oneself defrocked.

The other parallel between HTM and ROAC is that HTM sought out bishops who didn't speak English and lived on another continent. I don't know if Fr. Gregory ever learned Russian -- I know he can paint Slavic characters -- but the current situation leaves him with little supervision, little guidance, little accountability. How many thousand miles is he away? I question Fr. Gregory's judgement for seeking ordination from someone whom at least one court convicted of doing things similar to the abbot whom he (rightly and with a bishop's blessing) fled, and I question the former bishop Valentine's judgement in "ordaining" a man who has a history of jurisdiction jumping and whose entire monastic formation took place at a scandal-ridden monastery. It would be better for both men's salvation and for the sake of their flocks if they WERE "deflocked" and the faithful under them sought or returned to real bishops and real parishes. But I'm not holding my breath. The illusion of true orthodoxy is so much more attractive than the daily grind of the regular Orthodox life.

I have no clue where the stuff you first posted came from. It's....wacky. To attribute it to a ROCOR priest when instead it's something that someone assured you a ROCOR priest said is disingenous and misleading. But I've outlined for you the only connection that I can see.

Hope this helps!

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