Matrona of Moscow: Distraction from the REAL Saints

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Lemon Schist
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Re: Matrona of Moscow: Distraction from the REAL Saints

Post by Lemon Schist »

eish wrote: Mon 4 August 2025 12:41 am

Well, the statements really would address your concerns except you were never taught what to compare.

“Always, everywhere, and by all.” (Paraphrase of St. Vincent of Lerins.)

There are two competing parties. The way St. Vincent is telling you to tell them apart, is by comparing them to the undisputed past. Both sides agree--so they claim--on St. Vincent, St. Macarius, St. Anthony, St. John of San Francisco, etc.

You should compare the teachings of the two sides to the teachings of the ancient Fathers.

  • Elder Paisios taught to stay with the heretical hierarchy no matter what. St. Ambrose taught the opposite. And every saint you look at from the undisputed past, taught as St. Ambrose.
  • Fr. Peter Heers would have you believe that you should read and follow only the “saints of our times” because they are supposedly more comprehensible to us. But St. Vincent taught the opposite. He taught us to check what is being taught today against the ancient Fathers. When you read the Fathers in their writings against heretics and schismatics, indeed you see that they are quoting the ancients.

And so on. That is how you know first of all, which side is with the true Faith. Without correct doctrine miracles are irrelevant and may be assumed to be either delusion or just God condescending to show mercy on those who are already falling away, but by no means a sign of truth.

Other than that, @haralampopoulosjc and @SavaBeljovic have already pointed you in the right direction.

I listened to Fr Peter Heers a bit before I had started attending church, but my priest told me to stay away from him and Jay Dyer. Regarding Paisios heretical approval of the Pat Bartholomew, there again I recall it raising alarms but (cognitive dissonance in action) I chose to believe that perhaps there was more than one Pat Bartholomew and that I was misunderstanding. I suppose I am arguing out of sheer frustration that my ignorance and that of everyone else who doesn't know, causes us to be in heresy. It just makes me so sad.

I accept what you are saying, it just makes me angry that we have been duped by the church that we are supposed to love and see as our guide.

eish
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Re: Matrona of Moscow: Distraction from the REAL Saints

Post by eish »

Lemon Schist wrote: Mon 4 August 2025 7:03 am

I listened to Fr Peter Heers a bit before I had started attending church, but my priest told me to stay away from him

Fr. Peter speaks too many truths. This is what he is hated for and it is a pity that he refuses to accept the blatant and immediate logical consequence of what he is saying.

and Jay Dyer.

Common and quite frankly, not bad advice for young male converts into World Orthodoxy.

I accept what you are saying, it just makes me angry that we have been duped by the church that we are supposed to love and see as our guide.

I know. I had to learn the same things. Ask yourself: how could it be any different? Does a Roman Catholic not suffer a stab to the heart, learning that his saints were leading him astray? If you were in Judaism, would it not be painful to hear that your rabbi was leading you astray? If you were in Buddhism, how painful to hear that your buddha was leading you astray? It is painful for anyone to face the truth. The truth is that every false religion leads one astray despite feeling a deep emotional bond. It hurts. It hurts when the teachers were malicious. Sometimes it hurts even more when they were sincere.

We are to enter the Kingdom of Heaven through suffering. People are mistaken if they think that physical suffering is as bad as it gets.

“He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me”

Lemon Schist
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Re: Matrona of Moscow: Distraction from the REAL Saints

Post by Lemon Schist »

eish wrote: Mon 4 August 2025 2:44 pm

Fr. Peter speaks too many truths. This is what he is hated for and it is a pity that he refuses to accept the blatant and immediate logical consequence of what he is saying.

I have to thank him for introducing me to Fr Seraphim Rose of Blessed memory if nothing else.

Common and quite frankly, not bad advice for young male converts into World Orthodoxy.

I'm a woman <curtsy>

I know. I had to learn the same things. Ask yourself: how could it be any different? Does a Roman Catholic not suffer a stab to the heart, learning that his saints were leading him astray? If you were in Judaism, would it not be painful to hear that your rabbi was leading you astray? If you were in Buddhism, how painful to hear that your buddha was leading you astray? It is painful for anyone to face the truth. The truth is that every false religion leads one astray despite feeling a deep emotional bond. It hurts. It hurts when the teachers were malicious. Sometimes it hurts even more when they were sincere.

We are to enter the Kingdom of Heaven through suffering. People are mistaken if they think that physical suffering is as bad as it gets.

“He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me”

All valid points and I suppose I am just being emotional and looking for reasons that everyone on here is wrong. I haven't even been received into the church and God has presented this test.

eish
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Re: Matrona of Moscow: Distraction from the REAL Saints

Post by eish »

Lemon Schist wrote: Mon 4 August 2025 6:45 pm

I'm a woman <curtsy>

Fair enough, madam. I owe you an apology. But it IS still “common and, quite frankly, not bad advice for young male converts into World Orthodoxy.” If they have to resort to telling it to the women as well the orthobro situation must be getting really bad. :lol:

I haven't even been received into the church and God has presented this test.

Better now than going through the same thing twice. Or thrice. Ask me how I know. You could have gone to liberal WO, had to leave for more conservative WO, and ended up having to leave that as well. Don't think I don't love those people. Worst of all, you could have never moved past the false facade of Orthodoxy at all.

Lemon Schist
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Re: Matrona of Moscow: Distraction from the REAL Saints

Post by Lemon Schist »

eish wrote: Tue 5 August 2025 1:38 am

Fair enough, madam. I owe you an apology. But it IS still “common and, quite frankly, not bad advice for young male converts into World Orthodoxy.” If they have to resort to telling it to the women as well the orthobro situation must be getting really bad. :lol:

No apology necessary, since there are no women on the internet ;)
It is an unfortunate fact that when looking for information on Orthodoxy, one does encounter Jay Dyer almost immediately. I was more interested in his takes on cults, ufos, and the subversion of Hollywood and 3 letter agencies. I was also listening to Ancient Faith radio and reading the websites of John Sanidopoulos among others.

Better now than going through the same thing twice. Or thrice. Ask me how I know. You could have gone to liberal WO, had to leave for more conservative WO, and ended up having to leave that as well. Don't think I don't love those people. Worst of all, you could have never moved past the false facade of Orthodoxy at all.

I keep telling myself this but it's difficult since I thought God had brought me to this location when I was searching for a job. The first priest I contacted, in my previous location, was originally from the town I now live and attended the church I am now attending. It seemed like God's providence brought me here, and I have experienced a number of things that seem like little miracles. Things that I would have previously assigned to coincidence occurred when I prayed for Paisios's and Matrona's help.

eish
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Re: Matrona of Moscow: Distraction from the REAL Saints

Post by eish »

Lemon Schist wrote: Tue 5 August 2025 7:41 am

No apology necessary, since there are no women on the internet ;)

The internet: where the men are real men, the women are really men, and the kids are undercover cops.

It is an unfortunate fact that when looking for information on Orthodoxy, one does encounter Jay Dyer almost immediately. I was more interested in his takes on cults, ufos, and the subversion of Hollywood and 3 letter agencies. I was also listening to Ancient Faith radio and reading the websites of John Sanidopoulos among others.

Funny opposite story. I had no idea who this "Jay Dyer" was that Roman Catholics were accusing Orthodox converts of being followers of. I eventually discovered him only because he operates loosely in the same sphere as KJ and I took a temporary interest in what is happening in the realm of horror writing, with a bit of a detour to KJ's conspiracy videos. “Oh, they mean this guy! Yeah, he is eccentric.” (Poor KJ. The man's been frantically panicking over the end of the world and “rapture” for years and years. He sees that there is evil in the world but he allows it to dominate his mind. No grounding in the Church and no discernment.)

On AFR, however, I can agree. I just thought it was Orthodox and even have some books from them. My first introduction to “Orthodoxy” after finding out about it and starting to investigate, must have been Kallistos Ware. I read Frederica what-was-her-name (Matthews-Greene?)'s book as well. Found the latter self-contradicting and problematic, and honestly wasn't impressed with her presuming to teach, but what it did help with is give me an idea what to expect when stepping into a church building. It lessened the culture shock to have heard some description of an “iconostasis” and “veneration,” etc.

I keep telling myself this but it's difficult since I thought God had brought me to this location when I was searching for a job. The first priest I contacted, in my previous location, was originally from the town I now live and attended the church I am now attending. It seemed like God's providence brought me here, and I have experienced a number of things that seem like little miracles. Things that I would have previously assigned to coincidence occurred when I prayed for Paisios's and Matrona's help.

And yet at the end of the day, have not those things brought you to Orthodoxy? Have you considered that God could have used World Orthodoxy to bring you to True Orthodoxy? I for one do not think I was ready to hear the truth in the beginning.

Just as the conservative World Orthodoxy is a stumbling block for some, a pressure relief valve allowing them to rest and not embrace real Orthodoxy, so it is a stepping stone for others. By the same measure, liberal World Orthodoxy may be for some a pressure relief valve on the way to conservative World Orthodoxy, and for others a stepping stone to it (or directly to True Orthodoxy). Any heretical “Christianity” leads some astray but is also used by God to lead some on the path to truth.

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