Matrona of Moscow: Distraction from the REAL Saints

[Lemon Schist]

Lemon Schist, Wonderful that you are able to study and read - especially HERE on E.C., where there is actually a fountain of wisdom if you check bac thru old threads too.

I'm working my way through them.

Thank you for having that willpower to struggle thru all this uncomfortable learning stage.

It's hard to hear things questioned that you always believed were fine.

It wasn't so much that I believed everything was fine, it was that I have struggled to overcome my decades of disbelief when it comes to things like miracles. I struggled so hard to accept the stories I read about in the Lives of Saints and was constantly buffeted by intrusive thoughts of skepticism on the miracles witnessed. So finding out that the "saints" that I prayed to and felt like they had helped me were false, and that the WO is false has been a win for the Old Man in me who had faith in nothing but "science." I'm fighting it though and praying about it.

Why don't you donate your "Matronushka 'icon'" to a parish of your choice, so to as to get it out of the house ? I view these false saints as actually poisonous to the atmosphere where one resides or works.
They most likely bring discordancy rather than any semblance of holiness.
Your user name suggests fresh, invigorating sunshine, so you don't want any pollution from false saints to cloud your days !

We're here to help, just ask for ideas or explanations about some of these difficult topics. There are threads also on other MP people like Bishop Luke of Simferopol which explain why, from our point of view, he is NO Saint !

For a start.

I don't know how I feel about donating something that can be considered poisonous. I may bury them.
I remember when I first read about Bishop Luke and being surprised by his willingness to bow to Stalin. I thought it was really odd, but there again I assumed it was my old skepticism rearing its head.

The forum has been an excellent resource for understanding the different canons and learning about St. Philaret, among other subjects...I've kind of gotten a bit obsessed about reading it all.

[Barbara]

Good that you have !!! Please keep going with all this. You're doing extremely well, especially for a skeptically-minded person by nature.

People here, I have to say, are FAR shrewder than really any other larger forum you can find on the Orthodox spectrum, at least at the moment.

Most, like OC.net, if that is still around, are so blah, wishy-washy.

But it's great you found this site ! That shows discernment right there that you are reading and participating.

[Barbara]

I have a question for anyone.

I think Sava mentioned some posts ago about the Council of Laodicea.

How do we pronounce that name ?

I always thought it was Lao-DEEK-i-Ya

Then I heard a jewish host on a documentary about Turkiye travel say "Lao-dih-SEE-ah" [more information about this video later]

I have visited that site because of its ancient connections, so i know that there at the very location, for sure, it's pronounced Lao-DEEK-i-Ya.

Anyone want to comment here ?

[eish]

I agree those are all serious allegations, but it doesn't address my question. If the church claimed them saints but they aren't, then doesn't it call into question every other saint that has been canonized?

I didn't even know about Esphigmenou Monastery until recently, and it is utterly disgusting to me how they are being persecuted.

How does one discern between the claims of individuals who believe a person is a saint, the church who may have ulterior motives, and those who are persecuting the saint? From what I have read, many people hated the individuals while they were alive, who were canonized. I'm not trying to suggest that this is the case with your examples, I'm trying to point out that with all of the examples of saints who intentionally did things to avoid praise, how am I supposed to recognize the difference?

Well, the statements really would address your concerns except you were never taught what to compare.

“Always, everywhere, and by all.” (Paraphrase of St. Vincent of Lerins.)

There are two competing parties. The way St. Vincent is telling you to tell them apart, is by comparing them to the undisputed past. Both sides agree--so they claim--on St. Vincent, St. Macarius, St. Anthony, St. John of San Francisco, etc.

You should compare the teachings of the two sides to the teachings of the ancient Fathers.

• Elder Paisios taught to stay with the heretical hierarchy no matter what. St. Ambrose taught the opposite. And every saint you look at from the undisputed past, taught as St. Ambrose.
• Fr. Peter Heers would have you believe that you should read and follow only the “saints of our times” because they are supposedly more comprehensible to us. But St. Vincent taught the opposite. He taught us to check what is being taught today against the ancient Fathers. When you read the Fathers in their writings against heretics and schismatics, indeed you see that they are quoting the ancients.

And so on. That is how you know first of all, which side is with the true Faith. Without correct doctrine miracles are irrelevant and may be assumed to be either delusion or just God condescending to show mercy on those who are already falling away, but by no means a sign of truth.

Other than that, @haralampopoulosjc and @SavaBeljovic have already pointed you in the right direction.

[Lemon Schist]

Well, the statements really would address your concerns except you were never taught what to compare.

“Always, everywhere, and by all.” (Paraphrase of St. Vincent of Lerins.)

There are two competing parties. The way St. Vincent is telling you to tell them apart, is by comparing them to the undisputed past. Both sides agree--so they claim--on St. Vincent, St. Macarius, St. Anthony, St. John of San Francisco, etc.

You should compare the teachings of the two sides to the teachings of the ancient Fathers.

• Elder Paisios taught to stay with the heretical hierarchy no matter what. St. Ambrose taught the opposite. And every saint you look at from the undisputed past, taught as St. Ambrose.
• Fr. Peter Heers would have you believe that you should read and follow only the “saints of our times” because they are supposedly more comprehensible to us. But St. Vincent taught the opposite. He taught us to check what is being taught today against the ancient Fathers. When you read the Fathers in their writings against heretics and schismatics, indeed you see that they are quoting the ancients.

And so on. That is how you know first of all, which side is with the true Faith. Without correct doctrine miracles are irrelevant and may be assumed to be either delusion or just God condescending to show mercy on those who are already falling away, but by no means a sign of truth.

Other than that, @haralampopoulosjc and @SavaBeljovic have already pointed you in the right direction.

I listened to Fr Peter Heers a bit before I had started attending church, but my priest told me to stay away from him and Jay Dyer. Regarding Paisios heretical approval of the Pat Bartholomew, there again I recall it raising alarms but (cognitive dissonance in action) I chose to believe that perhaps there was more than one Pat Bartholomew and that I was misunderstanding. I suppose I am arguing out of sheer frustration that my ignorance and that of everyone else who doesn't know, causes us to be in heresy. It just makes me so sad.

I accept what you are saying, it just makes me angry that we have been duped by the church that we are supposed to love and see as our guide.

[eish]

I listened to Fr Peter Heers a bit before I had started attending church, but my priest told me to stay away from him

Fr. Peter speaks too many truths. This is what he is hated for and it is a pity that he refuses to accept the blatant and immediate logical consequence of what he is saying.

and Jay Dyer.

Common and quite frankly, not bad advice for young male converts into World Orthodoxy.

I accept what you are saying, it just makes me angry that we have been duped by the church that we are supposed to love and see as our guide.

I know. I had to learn the same things. Ask yourself: how could it be any different? Does a Roman Catholic not suffer a stab to the heart, learning that his saints were leading him astray? If you were in Judaism, would it not be painful to hear that your rabbi was leading you astray? If you were in Buddhism, how painful to hear that your buddha was leading you astray? It is painful for anyone to face the truth. The truth is that every false religion leads one astray despite feeling a deep emotional bond. It hurts. It hurts when the teachers were malicious. Sometimes it hurts even more when they were sincere.

We are to enter the Kingdom of Heaven through suffering. People are mistaken if they think that physical suffering is as bad as it gets.

“He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me”

[Lemon Schist]

Fr. Peter speaks too many truths. This is what he is hated for and it is a pity that he refuses to accept the blatant and immediate logical consequence of what he is saying.

I have to thank him for introducing me to Fr Seraphim Rose of Blessed memory if nothing else.

Common and quite frankly, not bad advice for young male converts into World Orthodoxy.

I'm a woman <curtsy>

I know. I had to learn the same things. Ask yourself: how could it be any different? Does a Roman Catholic not suffer a stab to the heart, learning that his saints were leading him astray? If you were in Judaism, would it not be painful to hear that your rabbi was leading you astray? If you were in Buddhism, how painful to hear that your buddha was leading you astray? It is painful for anyone to face the truth. The truth is that every false religion leads one astray despite feeling a deep emotional bond. It hurts. It hurts when the teachers were malicious. Sometimes it hurts even more when they were sincere.

We are to enter the Kingdom of Heaven through suffering. People are mistaken if they think that physical suffering is as bad as it gets.

“He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me”

All valid points and I suppose I am just being emotional and looking for reasons that everyone on here is wrong. I haven't even been received into the church and God has presented this test.