A Conversation on Modernism

[Natasha]

Since I am posting here on the ROCOR forum, I thought it was implied that I have a soft spot for Russian culture and Russian Orthodoxy. In every ethnic Russian there is an Orthodox heritage. I believe that

[Justin Kissel]

Natasha

[quote] I believe that

[Natasha]

Ok, I really feel beat-up here. I was the ONLY one who responded to the article, & all I did was comment on each line of the

[Justin Kissel]

[Body of post deleted just in case it would be taken the wrong way]

Hoping you will stop taking comments so personally,

Justin

PS. Many of us have already seen the page linked to on other fora before, and have responded before. This is the case with me. I have no want to rehash everything I've said elsewhere concerning the topic.

[Seraphim Reeves]

• Natasha...we're all friends here. Don't take everything so personally.

• As for the practice of "Sunday morning confession", it's nice if it's possible, but my understanding that in many Churches (and this includes ROCOR Churches), Sunday morning confession is the exception, not the rule. Priests are generally very busy people, particularly when preparing for Divine Services. Generally from what I've seen, Sunday morning confessions (in my experience) were only offered in emergencies (i.e. you just couldn't possibly make it Saturday evening, and you don't pull this all of the time.) It's a simple matter of courtesy.

• As for "sinning between Saturday and Sunday"...it's possible. However, the thought behind this makes me cringe...it smacks of scrupleousness. Sin is a very serious thing. However, if one is commiting some serious evil after confessing Saturday evening, after taking part in the prayers, and spending the evening in preparation (and fasting!), then I have to wonder if they're schitzophrenic or not. Unless what you have instead, is a person who is scrupelous, who thinks even the slightest temptation is a profound evil which should bar them from the Chalice. I can't even imagine a Priest ever encouraging such a view amont communicants. While I tend to not take derisive "oh, that's grandma theology" comments very well (since it usually comes from people who are in the throws of modernism), I think this might be a case where the term does apply.

• It's very true that there are good examples in several juristictions (such as Fr.Ephrem's monasteries in the GOA.) However, I think people are speaking of general tendencies (and generally, ROCOR tends to be far more traditional and conservative in it's approach to the Orthodox tradition, where as other juristictions might be prone to be less so.)

• Like other converts here, the issue of language and culture is something I feel very strongly about. However, I think I'm somewhere between the "American Orthodox" folks on one hand, and the old-world cultural imperialists on the other.

If you look at the history of Christianity's journey from Jerusalem, there is (on a human level) an organic connection between missions. When the overtly semitic/judaic form of the faith traveled with the Apostles, it took root in various cultures. Naturally, it began to assume some indigenous qualities (language being the big one.) With time, cultural elements began to be baptized as well, so that the local Churches began to have a firm connection to the lands they existed in. For example, the celtic tonsure (no longer extant) was similar to that used by the Druids (the former pagan wise men/priests of the Celts.) This same model carried through, when East Roman missionaries encountered the Slavic world - you can see Byzantion through and through in Slavic Christianity, however it's obvious that it has grow beyond this and has it's own life.

A similar process will have to happen before there is an "American Orthodoxy." I pray to God that no significant number of Orthodox heirarchs will even dream of indulging the failed experiment of the Roman Catholics, with their policy of artificial "incluturation" (which sought to do what the Church naturally does, but in a contrived manner...all it resulted in were the most banal parts of secular culture being dragged into their churches, filthy and unwashed.)

This is going to have it's difficulties, obviously (since like pagan cultures of the past, there is a great deal in America which is both welcoming of the Gospel, but also detrimental.) And it will take time...and more significantly, it will take true Apostles and Saints.

In the mean time, we should hold onto the "old world roots" of our tradition...since even in the future, they will still remain a part of whatever "American Orthodoxy" is meant to be. With that said, however, I am just as fed up with the "greek club" (or replace "greek" with "russian" or "serbian", or your other favourite ethnic group) mentality of many churches. There is also no excuse whatsoever for Churches not celebrating services primarily in English (or whatever vernacular would be for the local community). This is not only for the sake of converts, but also for the children of the so called "born" Orthodox. With that said, I will conceed that in many communities you can use the "old language" successfully (in addition, there are some exceptions; though they have english language missions, ROCOR generally uses Slavonic - however this is part of ROCOR's charism, to preserve the Russian tradition and minister to Russians in the diaspora.)

Seraphim

[Natasha]

Please don't think I am that sensitive! I guess I came off stronger than I intended. I am always interested in hearing others opinions. I just felt as if I had to continually defend my initial post, when what I would have rather seen was more information about other peoples experiences.
So, no, I am not currently cowering in the corner-let's just move the discussion on!
I am sure you can understand.

[demetrios karaolanis]

Natasha
I like your saying in one of your posts "the watering down of the faith" because that is exactly what most of this modernism is trying to do to the church. people need to toughen up and get used to some things that should stay the same.