Schism

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

You seem to be hinging everyting on communion with Antioch, and as well you should, but take Antioch away and you still have a den of ecumenist wolves in every synod and church.

For instance, chances are you were not baptized when you came to one of the ecumenist churches. This is not because they are using economia per se, they use "economia" as a disguise to justify a person not being baptized. The real reason people are rarely baptized anymore is because they recognize heretical baptisms. This is where the rubber hits the road. You think the ecumenists will acheive a heretical union with anyone by signing "agreements"? No they won't, and they know it. They will only acheive their aims when people start seeing eachother as a "part" of the Church - and what better way than to recognize eachothers baptisms? The recognition of Baptisms is the same to say any church can make one a member of the Body of Christ. I cannot even begin to express how important this is.

But anyway, you seem to be on the right track even if I don't believe you have yet reached all the right conclusions yet.

[Nikodemus]

A time ago I sent many quotes of the holy fathers, including the one Nathanael just quoted, to the Monastery of the Holy Paraclete in Oropos were I was baptised. I did it, because they had asked me for my reasons going to the old calendar church (Cyprianos) in Stockholm. Of course, I had no plan to teach these, well educated monks, in anything...but they had asked me to write an explanation and so I did. This monastery is strongly anti-ecumenist and protestet very hard when the pope visited Athens. The Igumen, Fr Timotej, is widely known for his splendour and holiness and giver missions in Georgia and Russia, tries to upbuild the coenobitic monasticism there and in Caucasus. I am very fortunate to take councils from him. The conclusion I draw is that we first must try to save ourselves through prayer. The demons attack us both to the left (ecumenism), but also to the right.

Still, my sympathy goes to the old calendarists on many points...

[Joseph]

Yes, AMDG, there is much confusion over these issues and it is very difficult to know what to do and where to turn. There are so many conflicting voices.

Many years ago I left the Antiochians to go with the Greek Old Calendarists. Then, my pride, my rationalizations, my fears, my faithlessnes and my efforts to follow my own conscience and thoughts rather than the teachings of the fathers and confessors caused me to go back to Antioch. A great mistake. After several years of trying to explain, rationalize, excuse, pretend and convince myself that what we call world Orthodoxy is the unchanged Orthodoxy of the fathers, I had to admit that I was following my own thoughts and desires rather than the clear teachings of the fathers, councils, confessor, etc. I finally repented and returned to my former Old Calendarists. It is never easy and there are many times of doubt and frustration but I am glad I could return. I know there are many sincere, pious and godly Orthodox who remain in world Orthodoxy for various reasons. There will always be many unanswered questions, doubts, fears and disappointments in this vale of tears. To me it came down to following the consensus teachings of the fathers, confessors and councils of the early church on the subject of fleeing communion with heresy rather than listening to this or that voice, even if it was a seemingly holy monk, knowing that even holy monks can have blind spots or even be deceived. Mt. Athos once ceased commemorating the EP, only to resume when threatened with eviction.

[CGW]

I'm stepping out of line a bit here, but given the current crises I feel I need to speak.

I'm reading this thread, and thinking, "The teaching here is that 'Orthodoxy means schism.'" Everything here is about division, separation, exclusion. Orthodoxy, in this thread, seems only to exist in its rejection of and separation from others.

[TomS]

Orthodoxy, in this thread, seems only to exist in its rejection of and separation from others.

Yep. It's all about that "small book of Life."

[CGW]

Orthodoxy, in this thread, seems only to exist in its rejection of and separation from others.

Yep. It's all about that "small book of Life."

I'm going home now, and write a check to Jesus, c/o the Red Cross. You guys, find a charity and do likewise.

[尼古拉前执事]

I'm going home now, and write a check to Jesus, c/o the Red Cross. You guys, find a charity and do likewise.

Yes, right now this is very important. Tomorrow I am taking some time off work to help load up trucks with water and food headed for the Southern Gulf Coast of the United States of America. Anyone that can help should, whether with money or volunteering or just donating blood or items.