WCC

[Kollyvas]

One need simply acquaint oneself with the historical language, say, surrounding the arian controversies to appreciate what is forthrightness in the Faith as opposed to "harshness." "My template," and I am unaware how this became personal, is founded in the Fathers, Canons, History , witness of the Church, which I have put forward here. Just a reflection on the Baptist "antichrist" post on this thread shows that the "other" side is far from "gentle" in its denial and denaturing of Orthodoxy...I cannot understand how it is "uncharitable" for Orthodox to witness Orthodoxy in an ORTHODOX FRAMEWORK to bring the errant to True Faith. That was never "harsh" before.
R
evil is to be cast out and never coddled. And participation in the ecumenical movement is a great evil, for the movement preaches a new and blasphemous "messiah" who would try to destroy the Church and give us in place of the ONE CHALICE the abomination of desolation. I sing in affirmation of my Holy Faith today to this iniquity...ANATHEMA, ANATHEMA, ANATHEMA!!!

[AndyHolland]

One need simply acquaint oneself with the historical language, say, surrounding the arian controversies to appreciate what is forthrightness in the Faith as opposed to "harshness." "My template," and I am unaware how this became personal, is founded in the Fathers, Canons, History , witness of the Church, which I have put forward here. Just a reflection on the Baptist "antichrist" post on this thread shows that the "other" side is far from "gentle" in its denial and denaturing of Orthodoxy...I cannot understand how it is "uncharitable" for Orthodox to witness Orthodoxy in an ORTHODOX FRAMEWORK to bring the errant to True Faith. That was never "harsh" before.
R
evil is to be cast out and never coddled. And participation in the ecumenical movement is a great evil, for the movement preaches a new and blasphemous "messiah" who would try to destroy the Church and give us in place of the ONE CHALICE the abomination of desolation. I sing in affirmation of my Holy Faith today to this iniquity...ANATHEMA, ANATHEMA, ANATHEMA!!!

We overcome evil with good. If someone says something good, we agree with the good. If someone says or does something bad, we point that out 'in a spirit of gentleness lest we be tempted.'

The Arian controversy was effectively dealt with in patience and gentleness, recall St. Meletius?

We should not let Baptists be our barometers or anti barometers, Jesus Christ is our Savior. "I" have often found that one wicked extreme does not justify the opposite extreme - in fact the devil does have two horns.

andy holland
sinner

[Kollyvas]

Please refrain from addressing me personally. As far as the arian controversy is concerned, one need only mention St. Basil the Great or St. Nicholas or St. Athanasios the Great or St. Antony of the Desert. As far as the Baptist article in question, it seems to accord more with the ORTHODOX SAINTS who witnessed Orthodoxy in the face of ecumenism than those who either compromise it or aid and abet the compromisers. Moreover, it is factual in its presentation of the slide into apostasy and moral relativism of the ecumenists. In the Book of Revelation Christ is clear: HE WILLS THAT WE BE EITHER HOT OR COLD, FOR THE LUKEWARM WILL BE SPIT OUT AND REJECTED. There is no "gentle way" of confronting evil...warfare is never gentle, and the Fathers attest to the violence we must confront spiritually for Holy FAITH IN TOTAL RENUNCIATION OF AND ENMITY TO evil. Orthodoxy is a fortress constantly set upon by evil and we must resist it, NOT THROW OPEN THE GATES. The witness of the Saints is put up here. Humility is witnessed in the words of the Saints. Succinctly, in summation, it has been shown on this thread that the wcc is:
1). operating under an ecclesiological model in opposition to Orthodoxy, attempting to supplant the Holy Truth. It is clearly advancing branch theory. This is heresy.
2). Orthodox witness is absent at these gatherings and the Orthodox are disregarded in their witness if they should even try to have it. Moreover, the Orthodox do not make known the statements they sign at hese gatherings to the faithful, nor do they tell all about their participation.
3). The Saints have condemned this type of "witness" as heretical and the Holy Spirit has affirmed their righteousness and humility.
4). Resistance to heresy involves cutting it off like a tumor and avoiding it, not infecting a healthy body with contagion.
5). The war with the evil one calls for zeal and forthrightness, not lukewarmness and affability.
6). Orthodox witness has historically been pursued in an Orthodox framework and that is where "dialogue" is most appropriate, not where it is edited by heretics.
I conclude my exchange with a certain person trying to justify Orthodox participation in the ecumenical movement thus.
R
ANATHEMAS TO ecumenical participation BY ALL THE LOCAL CHURCHES NOW!!!

[AndyHolland]

There is no "gentle way" of confronting evil...warfare is never gentle

Gaze upon the hands of the Master on the cross!

andy holland
sinner

[AndyHolland]

In my rural town there is a "Meals on Wheels" administered by a collection of heterodox churches. It is efficient to provide food to this organization for distribution to the poor. If there is no effective alternative, is it more in accordance with the Gospel to:

a. throw food away?
b. provide the food to those who efficiently distribute it?
c. let the food rot in a pantry?

At some point the Gospel of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ kicks in, and we give the food to those who efficiently distribute it.

Now a lady from our parish is on the board of the local meals on wheels, so is she wicked for doing so?

I know an Orthodox farmer who raises chickens on the side, and gives the eggs to the Meals on Wheels. Is he a heretic for following the command of Jesus Christ to give to the poor and feed even one's enemies? As there are no Orthodox using the eggs to make bread for the poor, what is he supposed to do - throw the eggs away?

If we are in a situation where material aid is supplied, and we have to engage for practical reasons, doesn't it make sense then to engage theologically by providing the Orthodox position?

It is God who adds to the Church daily - not man. We have to be Christian in the situation we find ourselves, and act in accordance with the Holy Gospels. Church Fathers are sometimes wrong - that is one reason Papal infallibility is so ridiculous. The Holy Gospel is always correct.

If there were no heterdox churches, then the food would go to the synagogue or the muslims or the athiests. As the lamp cannot be placed under a bushel basket, so too our good works must be seen so that God will be praised.

andy holland
sinner

[Kollyvas]

...HOLY SPIRIT IN OTHER RELIGIONS

“The church is called to discern the signs of the ‘hidden’ Christ and the presence of the Holy Spirit in other religions,” WCC central committee moderator Aram I said in his report to the assembly, according to a release by the Institute on Religion and Democracy.

Speaking on the need for unity among Christians, Aram, the Armenian Catholicos of Cilicia (one of the Lebanese church’s four major leaders), said a divided church cannot offer a credible witness to the world.

To reach the world, he advocated “a church beyond its walls” that is “liberated from its self-captivity” inside “dogmatic, ethical, theological, ethnic, cultural and confessional walls.” Aram went on to suggest that the Holy Spirit operates in non-Christian religions.

“According to biblical teachings, God’s gift of salvation in Christ is offered to the whole humanity,” he said. “Likewise, according to Christian pneumatology, the Holy Spirit’s work is cosmic; it reaches in mysterious ways to people of all faiths.”

Changes in the church and the world demand that Christians adopt new approaches to ecumenical organizations in the 21st century, Aram said. He noted that inter-religious dialogue can help believers get away from an “exclusivist, monological and self-centered self-understanding” and “look at the basics of our faith in a broader perspective.”

Aram’s comments on other religions were absent from the WCC’s official news release on his report, which focused on Aram’s call for Christian unity.

U.S. ‘RAINING DOWN TERROR’ ON THE WORLD

Throughout the assembly, delegates expressed anti-American sentiments regarding the war in Iraq and made claims of U.S. imperialism.

At a press conference Feb. 18, Leonid Kishkovsky, chief ecumenical officer of the Orthodox Church in America and former president of the National Council of Churches, presented a letter described as representing the WCC delegates from U.S. denominations. The letter portrayed U.S. military actions to thwart terrorism in terms of aggression against innocents.

“[O]ur country responded [to Sept. 11] by seeking to reclaim a privileged and secure place in the world, raining down terror on the truly vulnerable among our global neighbors,” the letter stated.

At the press conference, Kishkovsky appeared with John Thomas, president of the United Church of Christ; Sharon Watkins, general minister of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ); Michael Livingston, NCC president; and Stanley Noffsinger, general secretary of the Church of the Brethren.

“Nations have been demonized and God has been enlisted in national agendas that are nothing short of idolatrous,” the letter stated. “We lament with special anguish the war in Iraq, launched in deception and violating global norms of justice.”......

...George Mathews Nalunakkal, a Syrian Orthodox priest from India spoke against “conservative” views of human sexuality.

“When this appeal to the Bible [in a literal way] is combined with natural law,” he said, “it leads to exclusive and conservative positions.” He also objected to “statements [that] reflect a rather negative anthropology, where man is seen as a ‘fallen’ creature and sin is sexual.”

In the same workshop, Sara Baltodano of Costa Rica presented a summary of conclusions reached by regional WCC meetings in Costa Rica and India. The presentation stressed the importance of “sexual rights.”

“Sexual rights are also human rights,” the summary said. “Right and responsibility go together. This does not mean that we promote sexual rights without the attendant responsibilities of being non-abusive within relationships, and faithful within whichever configuration of relationship one chooses to be in.”

Alan Wisdom, IRD interim president and reporter from the assembly, said Baltodano’s comments reveal a low view of traditional marriage between a man and a woman.

Her remarks “revealed the attempt to dethrone marriage from its traditional place at the center of Christians sexual ethics,” he said. “Instead Baltodano’s summary would affirm ‘whichever configuration of relationship one chooses to be in’ –- not exactly a biblical category of thinking, or even a clear rational category.”

Archbishop Desmond Tutu expressed the WCC’s pluralistic thinking in a Feb. 20 address on unity.

“Bush, bin Laden, all belong, homosexual, lesbian, so-called straight -- all belong and are loved, are precious,” he said. ...

ttp://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=22744

[Kollyvas]

(in other words the wcc WILL NOT TOLERATE even a modicum of Orthodox witness or adherence to the Holy Canons or even Orthodoxy maintaining its identity as THE CHURCH. If ever there were a clear case of wcc rejection of Orthodoxy and pressure to conform to its heretical framework, look here.--R)

http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/assembly/eju ... piece7.htm

Unmasking Orthodox claims
By Hans-Georg Link

Some unmasking happened at the padare hearing with six orthodox representatives at the assembly on Wednesday afternoon.

While debating criteria for church renewal, a young Serbian priest could only point to his own Orthodox tradition and Holy liturgy. The work on Scripture and Tradition done by the WCC Commission on Faith and Order, which led to a breakthrough at its 4th World-Conference in 1963 in Montreal, was completely unknown to all panelists.

A simple explanation was given for this: "Today we live in another time, there is a new situation, a new generation". The old tradition within the WCC including Orthodox participants seems to be forgotten at all terms.

It became even worse, when an Orthodox priest had to admit that most of the Orthodox Churches did not really engage in the Apostolic Faith study, focusing on the Ecumenical Creed of 381, which is very much at the core of orthodox faith and self-understanding.

Most disappointing is the fact that almost all Orthodox churches do not even know that there has been such a long-term project (since Lima, 1982 until now), as can be recognised in the most recent statement on The Nature and Purpose of the Church (Ch. IV A).

Is it credible to make public calls in plenary sessions for more Christ-oriented work within the WCC and at the same time not be engaged or interested in, not even be informed about, the work being done for decades?

I am afraid that the Rev. Rose Hudson-Wilkin was absolutely right: there is neither renewal nor theology at stake, but power games.

The Ecumenical Prayer Cycle, available in four western languages (English, French, German and Spanish) has never been translated into any of Orthodox languages -- Greek, Russian or Rumanian.

How do we have to come to grips with the fact that Orthodox dignitaries celebrated on Monday morning an Easter worship, while none of the dignitaries felt it necessary to take part in Sunday evening’s vigil, the crossroad "for our inability as Christian churches to receive Christ’s body and blood at one and the same table"?

Can there be an Easter celebration without sharing in the commemoration of Christ’s road to and death on the cross, or is this a gnostic heresy?

I understand that Orthodox churches have difficulties in involving themselves in western themes such as women’s ordination and sexual orientation. But it makes me sad and angry that Orthodox representatives abandon WCC work on their very own grounds: Scripture, Tradition, Creed and Prayer.

Instead of criticising the WCC for shifting from its original aims, it would be much more appropriate to do one’s own homework by involving once again work for the renewal of every church. Otherwise, I am afraid, the work done for more than 50 years with Orthodox participation will have been completely in vain and we’ll have to start again from point zero.

Dr Hans-Georg Link is a pastor for Ecumenical Affairs in Cologne, Germany, and a former member of the Faith and Order staff.