Waldemar asks, What if Saint Seraphim of Sarov Resurrected?

[Waldemar]

OOD,

I have tipped my hand already as to my "Traditionalist" sympathies with my next to last post of quotations from Archbishop Chrysostomos.

I'm starting to understand where you and Nicholas are coming from since I did a little extracurricular reading last night on the TOC-GOC and ROCA-ROAC splits.

GOC and ROAC are supposed to be the more purified Traditionalists communions, right? The pan-fried heresy of ecumenism all filtered out?

You've strained out heresies but have swallowed the camel of what Archbishop Chrysostomos called "something as bad as heresy itself."

Basically our failure to communicate has less to do with the recognition of heresy and more to do with who or what is the Church.

You and Nicholas are used to "talking down" to us from the high hill of Graceland to us in Disgraceland.

GOC-ROAC full of grace. World Orthodoxy-ROCA-TOC devoid of grace.

GOC-ROAC full of Light. WO-ROCA-TOC-Protestants-Latins:undifferentiated darkness.

There's a purity, a manichean clarity that is a temptation to me in this view of yours but you lose me when you say that your communions (GOC and ROAC are not in communion yet, right?) alone constitute the Church.

Your quotations from the Saints are instructive in teaching me about the nature of heresy do not convince me that GOC and ROAC alone are the Church.

I realize that your posts that are directed at me have already gone beyond the "first and second" admonitions and I thank you for caring enough to try to instruct me.

It seems that I have worn out my welcome here.

I'm not sure when this forum went from ROCOR Cafe to GOC-ROAC Cafe but it done went and I'm weary of it.

Thanks for hosting me.

In Christ (or at least I think so),
Waldemar

[romiosini]

Lord Have Mercy!

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Waldemar,

You have by no means worn out your welcome, and if I sound I like I am talking "down" to you I don't mean to.

I believe however that the fathers were very clear in how they treated heretics, condemned in a council or not. I am not adverse to discussing it, but I don't feel making personal judgments about me is worthwhile when I have clearly shown they are not my judgments ay all.

I presume then you are under Met. Cyprian?

[Justin Kissel]

Waldemar

It's natural that you should feel like you've worn out your welcome... you must indeed be very weary, for you've done nothing but fight and be combative (while simultaneously posting quotes about non-judgment) this entire thread! No one is asking you to leave, so if you do leave, please remember that it is because you wanted to, not because we wanted you to. I'd be very happy if you'd stick around and become a regular poster here.

[fserafim]

I notice in this discussion that ROAC is not in communion with GOC. Now according to the logic of this forum, one of them is the Church while the other is a false assembly.

If they are both the Church then surely they should be in communion with each other, being members of the Body of Christ?

I find this disturbing since both are claiming to be the true Church founded by Christ in St John's Gospel. The Jewish canonists accused Christ of breaking the Law. We too are accused of breaking the canons, interpreted by our bishops. St Serafim of Sarov broke the rules concerning monastic dress and receiving the Holy Mysteries in his cell. Not that we should accept this as a free license to do what we 'feel' is good. No, we are obedient to our bishop and our spiritual father and to the witness of the saints.

Father Serafim

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Father Seraphim,

There have certainly been extraordinary times in the Church, and cases, I suppose even many, where one bishop or synod did not have communion with the other, yet the Church later recgonized both as being "the Church".

In todays catastrophic world, whose most recent destruction is being reaped on the ROCOR, it would not at all be unexpected that those forgotten and outwardly disunited little parishes may even be ignorant of the others’ existence. And in such times, perhaps not even trust the Orthodoxy of the other. But they are united among themselves by the mystical bonds of the Body and Blood of the Lord, in the Holy Spirit, with the common Faith and Tradition which they have alone preserved undefiled.

Truly, who would say that those Orthodox who survive to live in the last days, whenever that will be, will know one from another or be in communion with all or any other Orthodox considering the agonizing circumstances in which they will live as described by Christ Himself? Will you say they are not the Church?

No, there has been no logic forwarded here which says communion and recognition of "us" is a requirment for you to be Orthodox - we are not Montanists!

What we do require is that you not be in communion with heresy, which is a more striking and important question, a question of salvation.

[Justin Kissel]

Father Seraphim

I ask your forgiveness, as I have obviously been very imprecise and inarticulate. I say this because, for my own part, the "the logic of this forum" as you spoke of it, does not describe my own position (or logic). As OOD said, I am willing to accept that Orthodox Churches can both be Orthodox but yet for a time not be in communion with each other. I fully recognize that sometimes even saints argued amongst themselves and refused to be in communion (or even broke communion) with each other. I realise that some saints even played a part in other saints beind deposed and exiled. I realise that things are not always black and white. I apologize if I have put forward what seemed like a much narrower understanding of grace and communion between Churches.