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[Anastasios]

try to derail me and my site but we're the biggest, best, [snip] so I am not worried.

How very Catholic of you. We're the biggest, so it doesn't matter what anyone says about us, what is right and wrong, we still have the numbers.

What a stretch. LOL. Oh yeah, Lounger, I base everything on numbers. Notice how I also said "the best" (in terms of quality--we have a lot of quality posters from varied backgrounds) and "the nicest*", but you ignore that--your little snip takes the comment right out of context. By the way, how in the world are you going to be able to attack me when I do enter Orthodoxy, Lounger? I guess then instead of calling me a "Uniate" you will start calling me an "Ecumenist" and that will satisfy you.

anastasios

*nicest in the sense of most charitable and friendly--two Christian values you lack.

[Anastasios]

Now to be fair here are some of the points about that other forum that I don't like:

Monophysites are assumend to be 100% Orthodox

Latins are understood to have some degre of legitimacy

Saint Vladimir's in unquestionly held up as the pinnacle of Orthodoxy

Some posters in particular have called Elder Ephraim and the Fathers "guru cult leaders" and those posts still stand

Some admins are dead set against reception of converts via anything other than profession of faith

Nektarios,

I am glad that you defended and critiqued me. I welcome both!

1) St. Vladimir's is not considered to be the pinnacle of Orthodoxy. I happen to like my school but there are things that I seriously disagree with, and when traditionalists post critques of such issues, I do not censure them. In fact, you might find this amusing (and some will have the inevitably childish thought, "oh if they think HE is conservative then..."), but at St. Vlad's people assume I am a closet traditionalist because I vigorously defend proper clerical dress, the right of people to use the Julian Calendar, the right of people to be received by baptism into the Orthodox Church (even though I personally disagree with it in the case of Catholics), etc. Basically, St. Vlad's is a place where people learn. It has its pros and cons.

2) What does it mean that Latins have "some degree of legitimacy?" We tow the official Orthodox position on OC.NET, namely that Latins (and my fellow co-religionists the Greek Catholics) are in error. There is disagreement as to how MUCH they are in error, but no admin has embraced the branch theory. Certain posters do hold opinions like that, but like you said in your previous post, I allow all points of view as long as charity is invoked.

3) I let the posts about Elder Ephraim stand because a) I know several people who HAVE been burned because of bad experiences with his monasteries, even though my friend is one of his spiritual sons and only has the best to say about him and b) there were plenty of people like you to defend him. I stepped in and said I thought he was good so that helped his cause too.

4) As I alluded to before, you are wrong if you think I am dead set against reception in any way but profession of faith [for Catholics]. I am opposed to baptising Catholics since this is not the traditional practice of either the Greek or Russian Church, but I am not opposed to baptism of Protestants if requested or if there is a defect, and I am not opposed to Catholics being chrismated. I personally according to MY conscience and discussions with my spiritual father and other Orthodox priests will be received by either confession/profession (the current MP practice and some OCA dioceses) in the least or an anointing with Chrism (OCA practice in other parts) at the most, but I don't judge others.

5) As far as Monophysites so-called go, I will admit we are guilty as charged there, but not because we "assume" anything. I didn't come to my conclusions by sitting around thinking nice thoughts, but by reading and visiting their churches, and realizing how close they are to Eastern Orthodox. Still, I allow people to critique Non-Chalcedonians as much as they want if they do it charitably.

anastasios

[bogoliubtsy]

Anastasios,
I'm curious about the rules for admission to St. Vladimir's. I know somewhere, deep in a vault kept under OCA headquarters probably along with the OCA's Russian heritage, there is a rule about having to have been Orthodox for three years to be able to attend seminary. I suppose this rule is no longer active as you and another person I know (he converted there) were admitted as non-Orthodox students. I also know that this admittance of non-Orthodox is seen by some of the older OCA priests as posing a significant problem due simply to the fact that the person who converts at seminary and becomes a member of the clergy will have absolutely no experience in a real Orthodox parish. That seems like a real problem. I'll just ask about that for now...
Also, on a related note...and maybe we can discuss this too-
It does seem strange that some of our own OCA bishops don't think very highly of the current vibe at SVS. I've even heard one older priest comment that he's ashamed to say he went there and another priest say that he doesn't really recommend it, commenting on a kind of "elitist" feel that emanates from the place.

Just some thoughts...maybe you can give us your impressions.

[Natasha]

Peter wrote: "I know somewhere, deep in a vault kept under OCA headquarters probably along with the OCA's Russian heritage..."

With all the hostility in this thread-at least Peter's words made me smile good call!!!

Seriously though, I think people need to stop arguing with Julianna-it is tiresome and some of these posts are quite rude.

Also, anastasios, how can you recognize these "good Christian values" when you are so busy judging others? You seem like a real angry person. Sorry, just an observation.

[Nektarios14]

I am glad that you defended and critiqued me. I welcome both!

Good , a nice calm discussion could be beneficial to everyone -especially me since I learn a lot posting. Please note, this isn't directed at you personally but towards the general atmosphere created by many posters at OC.net.

Point 1: You're a closet traditionalist and I'm a closet Schmemann reader...what is this world coming to?

Point 2: Everytime the Latins are called heretics a lot of people go crazy over that. To the point of one of the other admins making the accusation of "convert 'excess baggage' furvor" when I mentioned that the Latins are heretics. And I have seen some things mighty close to the branch theory. I think you'd admit it is very ecumentist minded.

Point 3: It is not so much just the ELder Ephraim issue though. The guru thing has been snapped at Justin a lot when he quotes the fathers, and it is always left to stand and is never commented on. I even have gotten it once or twice for quoting Saint Gregory Palamas. Such is not a healthy understanding of the fathers...

Point 4: I think I may have been mistaken here after reading your response about the atmosphere over at OC.net

Point 5: The problem with that is the Saints of the Church disagree and for some very good reasons. This I think is the biggest complaint traditionalist could have about OC.net, that their opinion on this matter isn't even seen as within the acceptable range of permitted opinions.

[Anastasios]

Anastasios,
I'm curious about the rules for admission to St. Vladimir's. I know somewhere, deep in a vault kept under OCA headquarters probably along with the OCA's Russian heritage, there is a rule about having to have been Orthodox for three years to be able to attend seminary. I suppose this rule is no longer active as you and another person I know (he converted there) were admitted as non-Orthodox students. I also know that this admittance of non-Orthodox is seen by some of the older OCA priests as posing a significant problem due simply to the fact that the person who converts at seminary and becomes a member of the clergy will have absolutely no experience in a real Orthodox parish. That seems like a real problem. I'll just ask about that for now...
Also, on a related note...and maybe we can discuss this too-
It does seem strange that some of our own OCA bishops don't think very highly of the current vibe at SVS. I've even heard one older priest comment that he's ashamed to say he went there and another priest say that he doesn't really recommend it, commenting on a kind of "elitist" feel that emanates from the place.

Just some thoughts...maybe you can give us your impressions.

Hello, Peter!

I think the issue is that St. V's is both a seminary in the strictest sense (place where priests are trained) and a graduate school for study of Orthodox theology. There are both MDiv and MA degrees, for instance. Confusion comes when persons such as myself are admitted to the MDiv program. Yet there are Orthodox who are in the MDiv program who don't want to be priests, too--they either want to stay that third year, or they are interested in some aspect of non-ordained ministry. Since St. Vladimir's is a graduate school of theology they cannot restrict enrollment due to federal law, nor do I believe they would want to since as I just mentioned, they seek to be both a seminary and a place to further the teaching and research of Orthodox theology and Eastern Christianity.

As far as non-Orthodox going there and then converting during their stay, and then becoming priests, that is in my mind also a big problem, and I am not the only one who thinks so. Now I except myself from this since I am Greek Catholic and our parish life is like it or not about the same as an Orthodox parish (no, I am not saying we are the same in doctrine, praxis, etc!!), and I have years of experience hanging around Orthodox parishes regularly. But I still see the problems, especially if one is say a Baptist. Now the catch is we have to do a year of parish work so obstensively we are being exposed to a real parish, but perhaps people treat us differently since we are in the black robe.

Now I know that there are certain OCA bishops who don't like St. V's, and since I don't want to cook my own goose I am not going to comment on anyone personally. Basically no one really pays attention to that unfortunate situation, although I thought it was funny when we went and sang at the OCA's spring session of bishops and certain disapproving OCA bishops were "forced" to talk to all of us .

As far as elitism, this is what I sense. St. V's knows it is academically speaking the best place to study Orthodox theology in this country. It also is proud that it has a lot of really great liturgical events and a fixed schedule of organized prayer, student work assignments, a community atmostphere, etc. So pride is there. Elitism, I have sensed it unfortunately, and I don't like it. I may be an intelligent person, I may be on the road to a PhD, I may fashion myself an academic in training, but I sure as heck do not think I am better than anyone else. So I tend to stay away from people who express that elite spirit. Luckily, they are in the minority.

Hope that answers your questions. Sorry I am so vague but 1) I love my school and 2) I don't want to upset anyone there who I count as a friend.

anastasios

[Anastasios]

Peter wrote: "I know somewhere, deep in a vault kept under OCA headquarters probably along with the OCA's Russian heritage..."

With all the hostility in this thread-at least Peter's words made me smile good call!!!

Seriously though, I think people need to stop arguing with Julianna-it is tiresome and some of these posts are quite rude.

Also, anastasios, how can you recognize these "good Christian values" when you are so busy judging others? You seem like a real angry person. Sorry, just an observation.

Dear Natasha,

Thanks for your critique.

Who am I judging? I stated that Juliana is a schismatic which is an objective fact according to ROCOR, and I told Lounger that he is uncharitable, which is my opinion. Is that contrary to our gospel call? I try to be a good Christian.

Me an angry person, though? I guess you can't see me through the net. I am one of the happiest and friendliest people on earth (ask my wife). I am also quite silly in person. I don't like being attacked behind my back though, when I am easily accessible, so I do feel a bit of anger for that reason, though.

I only get polemical when pushed. You would probably be surprised to know that I actually have an affinity for Traditionalists. I like tradtional Orthodox praxis for the most part; I just don't like being attacked myself. I feel much more comfortable in a traditionalist setting than a liberal one.

anastasios