ROCOR-L and EP prayaing together?

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joasia
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Post by joasia »

To those who are so adament against ROCOR....

My question is...do you believe that the Holy Spirit is NOT present in the Holy Mysteries in ROCOR? Yes or no.

Since you all sit in your chairs JUDGING, I figure, you would also have the answer and JUDGEMENT to this question.

And also let me ask...which of you men of wisdom have the Holy Spirit working within you so that you can make such judgements?

I'm not saying that the bishops actions were not mistakes...I'm saying that in all the history of Orthodoxy, there have been many examples of clergy who fell away...but did God take away the Holy Spirit from the general synod?

Heresy is a distinctive situation, which has been condemned by the Ecumenical Councils, but bishops who have made bad choices have been existent throughout the Orthodox church history. But, with one bishop of bad conduct, God sent two bishops with true faith. It's just a matter of time. If this will not happen, then we are at the end of times and that includes everybody elses synods here too. Don't forget that the New World Order also includes a New World Religion. Your synods will also be sucked into it too. Especially, the OCA and new calendarists Greeks. But, has the Holy Spirit left all of us already? Should I even bother going to Holy Communion, if there is nothing there? I ask the judges, here, for a response.

And as far as the comment about the people left in ROCOR are pro-MP....are you referring to the clergy or are you extending it to the laity too? Because, I can speak for myself and a few close friends, we ARE NOT ECUMENISTS. We were baptised in the Greek old calendar church. And we believe in the true Orthodox faith, without the ecumenist equation. Actually, the subject of ecumenism makes me nuts. I have no tolerance for ecumenical dogma.

Everybody here is so loose with their use of the word "heretic". Judging a synod and the people that belong to it, as heretic, is condemning them to hell of heresy. Is that what everybody, here, intends to do...condemn us to hell because we are in ROCOR? Think about it. And you are not even in ROCOR. Try living in the situation first. I can call the OCA, new calendar Greeks, Serbians, and even the old calendarist(due to bp Paul taking a blessing from Pat. Bartholomew, 10 years ago!), heretics for their many transgressions. It's not all black and white.

So I ask, again, to those who have posted against ROCOR...do you believe that we do not have the Holy Spirit present in our Holy Mysteries??

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

My question is...do you believe that the Holy Spirit is NOT present in the Holy Mysteries in ROCOR? Yes or no.

Are they in communion with heretics? I don't believe they are, but they galloping very fast for the cliff and it seems the course has been charted.

And also let me ask...which of you men of wisdom have the Holy Spirit working within you so that you can make such judgements?

I don't think anyone here would claim the Holy Spirit is working in them, far from it. But the Holy Spirit for many hundreds of years has been working in the Church and in its Saints. It is not I who is fighting the words of the Church and its saints, I am only a sinner who is reading them. If there is some teaching of the Church I am missing I would very much appreciate your help in pointing it out.

There are so many examples I cannot list them all, but one such saint is St. Theodore the Studite. A few of his thoughts:

"With a great voice, Saint John Chrysostom declared that not only heretics, but also they who hold communion with them are enemies of God." - Letter to the Abbot Theophilus (PG 99, 1049)

"Keep yourselves from soul-corrupting heresy, whose communion is alienation from Christ." (PG 99, 1216)

"Concerning the Faith, the heretics were totally shipwrecked; but as for the others, even if in their thinking they did not founder, nonetheless, because of their communion with heresy, they too were destroyed with the others." -- Letter to the Patriarch of Jerusalem (PG 99, 1164)

I'm not saying that the bishops actions were not mistakes...I'm saying that in all the history of Orthodoxy, there have been many examples of clergy who fell away...but did God take away the Holy Spirit from the general synod?

These are not mere mistakes. This is a clear and unequivocal drive towards doctrines and a faith which is completely foreign to the Church. And this is not some club or earthly organization which we can choose to mold in any which way we please. This is the Church of Christ and if it is only one thing, it is a specific belief and faith - if you change that, you no longer have the Church of Christ, but rather an invention. You can choose to follow Christ or you can choose to follow sly inventors.

Now to answer your question, in all the history of the Church I have ever read, the Synod either cast out heretics or fell with them. If you could just give me one example where a saint, council, or synod maintained communion with a heretic (and there have been so many) then I will abdicate immediately. Until then I am wondering why you are so supportive of people you admit are "mistaken”, and so hostile toward the saints?

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Liudmilla
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Post by Liudmilla »

Joasia:

The problem is that MAN has put his faith in his own judgements and not in GOD. MAN has decided that we are wiser than GOD and therefore have the wisdom to make such judgements. Rather than wait and pray to GOD for the intercession necessary, mankind goes ahead and makes judgements, goes ahead and jumps ship, goes ahead and decides for GOD.

The rest of us still have some modicum of faith in GOD and his Church and that is why we stay, we hope, we pray that he enlightens our bishops and guides his church to where it must go.

For that hope we are condemned as heretics by all who have no right to judge in the first place, since it is a sin to judge another.

I wish all a good Holy Week.................

Milla

Joshua F
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Post by Joshua F »

2 points:

1) The constant refrain is that "they're judging us, and that's a sin." Anyone else see the irony here? :P

2) We are called to be rational sheep, and must take responsibility for the truth we have been given. Consequently, you can't shuffle off responsibility for your own soul onto bishops. Though that would be nice, since I'm making a mess of things :ohvey:

If you could get away without judging/discerning and if you could pass off responsibility for your faith to bishops, I submit that we should probably be commemorating papa Benedict. Because that's papism, is what it is.

Lent's almost over! Hopefully I can finish my thesis, due Monday, and make it to the Holy Week services /\

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Nikodemus
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Concerning grace

Post by Nikodemus »

Joasia,

Lately I have been studying some (for me) difficult questions concerning grace in the mysteries of heretics or schismatics. From beginning I had a moderate view, then I thought that the position of GOC made more sense, and then, after I read some more I am bac to the former position, not because I myself like it or not, but becuase I believe it is the teaching of the orthodox Church. The Holy Synod of Resitance in Greece who are in full communion with your church and which I with the help of God, soon will be in full communion with, have an interesting document concerning the delicate question of the status of the ecumenist churches and if there is grace in them or not. The document i refer to is called: "The status of uncondemned heretics" and is an official declaration of the Holy Synod. I quote:

“It has been argued that the ecumenists, and, more generally, the
ecumenist Churches, have already fallen away from the Body of the
Church entirely, that is, they are branches that are automatically cut
off from the Vine, and this, indeed, can be demonstrated from the fact
that we do not have Mysteriological (Sacramental) communion with
them.”
RESPONSE
A. Basic principles

  1. Those who commune with heretics: the Synodal proclamation
    a. First and foremost, it is not correct, or even just, that a local
    Church should be characterized and regarded as ecumenist in toto,
    simply because a number of Her clergy—and sometimes a small number,
    at that—are actually ecumenists: they are certainly not to be equated
    with the local Church.
    b. The local Orthodox Churches today are fundamentally anti-ecumenist;
    the inertia of the silent majority does not in any way imply
    agreement with, or endorsement of, ecumenist activities and teachings.
    c. It should not be forgotten that no local Church has proclaimed
    synodally that the primary dogma of the ecclesiological heresy of ecumenism
    is a teaching of the Orthodox Church that must be believed
    and that is necessary for salvation; and neither has this ever been proclaimed
    in a pan-Orthodox manner.
    d. The aforementioned views, concerning the need to avoid indiscriminate
    generalizations, if one is to have a reliable understanding of
    the true ecclesiological identity of our ecumenist brothers who are
    caught up in innovation and heresy, but have not yet been brought to
    trial, are grounded in the Fathers and are strongly upheld by St. Theodore
    the Studite, as follows:
    • St. Theodore, in his detailed analysis of the extremely intricate
    question of “whether one should receive communion from the Presbyter
    of a Bishop who is himself Orthodox,”1 but out of fear “commemorates
    his own Metropolitan” [see note 1], who is a heretic, ultimately
    makes the following declaration: “If the Metropolitan falls
    into heresy, it is not the case that all of those who are in direct or indirect
    communion with him are regarded automatically and without
    distinction as heretics,” despite, of course, the fact that by this stand
    of theirs “they bring upon themselves the fearful charge of remaining
    silent.”2
    • In explaining subsequently, and at length, that Moechianism [the
    specific ill to which he addresses himself] is “a most grievous heresy,”
    he invokes as his main argument the fact that this dogma was proclaimed
    synodally and was confirmed by an anathema: the Moechians
    “proclaimed [their transgressions] synodally,” “taught their transgressions
    synodally as dogma,” “and placed those who opposed their
    dogma under anathema....”3

End quote

Ok, let us now look how the Holy Synods regarded uncondemned heretics who had publicly teached a heresy, but till the synodal decision actually were treated as bishops with grace. I quote from the same document:

"• It should be noted that the Seventh Holy OEcumenical Synod,
after condemning the Iconoclasts, declared the following: “And we
cast the inventors of the innovating babble far away from the
precincts of the Church”;57 that is, their “rejection” was carried out
properly by the Holy Synod in the wake of a decisive judgment and,
indeed, after sixty entire years had elapsed since the manifestation of
the heresy.
• The same Holy Synod, referring, in its ÜOrow, to the Third Holy
OEcumenical Synod, affirms that “the Synod in Ephesus” “expelled
the impious Nestorios and his followers from the Church,”58 which
clearly demonstrates that the exclusion of a heretic is not accomplished
automatically, but constitutes an act of “expulsion” (a driving
out, a forcible casting out), requiring a competent body, that is, a Synod.
• Indeed, in this ÜOrow of the Seventh Holy OEcumenical Synod
there is a similar reference to the Fourth OEcumenical Synod, and in
this way the uniformity of the Synodal tradition is borne out: the
Synod in Chalcedon proclaimed the two perfect natures of the Savior,
“driving out of the divine fold” the “blasphemers Eutyches and Dioscoros.”
59
• Finally, the holy Patriarch Nicephoros of Constantinople, writing
to Pope Leo III of Rome, informs him that “we [the Fathers of the
Seventh OEcumenical Synod] have cast out of the Church” the Iconoclast
Bishops “who occupied their Episcopal thrones in defiance of
God,”60 which underscores very sharply, on the one hand, the ecclesiological
content of the act of “casting out” by a competent Synod,
and, on the other hand, the fact that, until the institutional “casting
out” and “expulsion” from the Church of the Hierarchs who taught
false doctrine, such Hierarchs were regarded as “occupying Episcopal
thrones.”
• Needless to say, we recall the very severe admonition of our
Savior, according to which if the ailing member of the Christian community
should “neglect to hear the Church, let him be unto thee as an
heathen man and a publican”:61 that is, not automatically or at the
same time as the transgression is committed, but after a specific procedure
has been followed; transgression is denounced by “the
Church,” that is, “the Leaders of the Church.”62 She looks into each
case judicially through a competent body, in line with the authority
given to Her;63 in the event that someone persists unrepentant, then—
according to Zigabenos—“let him be deprived of communion with
you, as one incurable.”64
• In particular, we note that the Lord, through the provision of
such authority (“ye shall bind” and “ye shall loose” are in the plural
[see note 63]) to the Holy Apostles and their successors, the Hierarchs,
assembling in a synodal tribunal, on the one hand excluded once
and for all partial, arbitrary opinions and individual verdicts of guilt
in the Church, exhorting the healthy member only to “tell it unto the
Church” [see note 61], and on the other hand confirmed the full, exclusive,
and sovereign spiritual jurisdiction of the synodal body, saying,
in essence, the following, according to Zigabenos: “Whatever
you decide on earth, God will validate it in Heaven, whether you cut
those who are incurable off from the Church or later receive back
those who repent.”65
d. Additionally, if the “diseased” but not “excised” part of the
Church is out of communion with the “healthy part” (the distinction
between “diseased” and “healthy” is made by St. Basil the Great and
St. Theodore the Studite66), which should certainly be “walled off”
from the former, this does not at all entail that the “diseased” part has
already fallen away from the Body, because in that case it would not
be characterized as “diseased,” but as “mortified”; mortification, however,
will come about through a “synodal decision,”67 that is, a “final
decision.”68
• Moreover, the need for a decisive judgment and “excision” of
unfruitful branches (St. Cyril of Alexandria writes: “awaiting the suitable
time for excisions”69) is suggested very clearly by the relevant
Parable: the Father, as “husbandman,” at a definite moment and after
a due process of inquiry, “taketh away every branch that beareth not
fruit” and “casteth it out.”70

End quote

This leads us to what we should do. And, according to the Holy Synods and Fathers we should 1) Wall of from the who preach heresy or are schismatic (according to the canons) and at the same time 2) Speak against their heresy but not JUDGE themm, simply because WE DO NOT HAVE THE SYNODAL AUTHORITY TO DO SO. If we had such an authoruty, the synod who condemned, for example, Nestorius, did not have to have taken place, because Nestorius, being a heretic were already out of the Church and lost all grace when the Synod met. But the Synod called him a bishop and wanted him to be present at the Synod as a bishop and they did not say that he had not grace before the synodal decision. You see, heretics are always given a choice to repent before they are exluded from the body.

In XP

Exact science must presently fall upon its own keen sword...from Skepsis there is a path to "second religiousness," which is the sequel and not the preface of the Culture.

Oswald Spengler

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joasia
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Post by joasia »

My question is...do you believe that the Holy Spirit is NOT present in the Holy Mysteries in ROCOR? Yes or no.

Are they in communion with heretics? I don't believe they are, but they galloping very fast for the cliff and it seems the course has been charted.

OOD, you did not answer the question....yes or no.

So you are psychic too...the course has been charted, well there are plenty of examples of courses changing, but you make it sound like this is the final destination and there is no hope for change. If so...then I say, we are at the end times and the anti-christ is alive in the flesh today. And if so, then your synod will fall away too. Corruption has no limits..it will effect everyone. What. Do you think you're in a safe haven, that your synod is the only Orthodox one? Your attitude sounds quite like the fanatic who has no sensitivity to the spiritual struggles we all share. I suppose you believe that your course as an Orthodox Christian is set out before you and you are saved...but, I say, that none of us can be certain where we will be when we leave this world. You, could even become disillusioned and fall away from God. You can even fall into the traps of the anti-christ. Are you strong enough to watch your family die and still resist the anti-christ? Who says that you are guarenteed free passage to His Holy Kingdom? Only at the end of your life will you be able to say that...if you stay faithful.

You can quote all you want, but the Orthodox churches that I see, in our times of the 21st century, is far from the strong faith of the times of the saints you quoted...and believe me, I know what they taught. We have the Holy Spirit by economia, ketaleves?

Don't you see it yourself? Bp. Paul(old calendar Greeks) took a blessing from the Pat of Constantinople, Bartholomew, 11 years ago. Why is everybody avoiding making comments about this? The old calendarist Greeks are far from a perfect church and so are the OCA and other synods that people here are part of.

Why only pick on ROCOR?

These are not mere mistakes. This is a clear and unequivocal drive towards doctrines and a faith which is completely foreign to the Church.

How do you know that? Were you at the meetings? Did you hear them express a desire to become ecumenists. Give me direct quotes that have been published by Met Laurus and Bp Gabriel. And I will certainly confront them with it. The Greek old calendarists still are in communion with ROCOR.

So what was bp Paul's excuse....I know, for a fact, that his uncle, bp Petros was very upset with him.

Haven't you ever been accused of something because satan whispered in someone's ear about you? You cannot make such black and white comments. I do not hear the commemoration to the MP when I'm at Liturgy. How do we know what is happening until it is officially out in the open? It's all rumour, up to this point.

Why are you so adament with your propaganda against ROCOR? Yes. I call it propaganda because you have already influenced some innocent seekers of faith againts us. You have made them decide to illiminate an option and who are you to know what is better for them? You are in a mindset that there is no hope, we are lost and not in the true Orthodox circle anymore.

Don't get me wrong. I hate heresy and especially the papacy. But, I also have come to learn that we have to be very clear on heresy and bad judgement. There is the circle of all the Orthodox synods and then there are the heretics. The Orthodox hierarchy that are more involved with the heretics still have clergy and laymen that oppose their actions. But, OOD, you have to understand that these are all very significant individual situations. You cannot just put a label on a group of clergy or laymen for being in a synod, although they don't agree with it. There are personal circumstances. And it is up to God to determine whether they are worthy of His Holy Kingdom.

I would love to be in an Orthodox church that is with a synod of bishops that have made no mistakes in their actions...but that does not exist...as to the example of bp Pavlos, who also fell in a moment of weakness or shall we say cowardice. How can anyone be in an old calendarist synod of a Met. who had taken a blessing from the EP? Do you see where this kind of confusion gets us? Shall we condemn the Greek old calendarist synod for this one man's actions in a state of confusion? In your eyes, we should. Or should we be reasonable and understand that the men who occupy the hierarchal chairs today are not the men of the times of St. John Chrysostomos.

What we have to do is pray for a true unity of Orthodoxy. Are we in the end times...if so, then your's and my synods will break up...where will we go. I say... to the catacomb churches. Who knows, we might even meet one day. These synods will not exist anymore, as we know them. But, the important thing is for all those who truely fear God and have faith in Orthodoxy will still be able to pray together. God will preserve us.

Kali Anastasi.

Nicodem,

I hope the Great Week will bring you peace and that God will make things clear in your heart. I myself am looking forward to Holy Communion tomorrow and Great Sat. and Pascha. I don't think we should deprive any Orthodox Christian the privelege of the Holy Spirit, during this most sacred time. If we did, then we would be acting as authorities above God, depriving them of spiritual hope for their salvation. Then how could we greet each other on that glorious day of Christ's Ressurection, when we didn't consider them worthy of it because of the synod they are in?

Have a blessed Great Week.

Last edited by joasia on Sun 24 April 2005 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

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Nikodemus
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Thank you

Post by Nikodemus »

Joasia,

Thank you and I wish you a blessed Palm Sunday and Holy Week too. And I say this to all of this forum regardless of synod: Have a great pascha of our Lord and Savoiur Jesus Christ who, so I believe gives all orthodox christian a blessing regardless of jurisdiction. Didnt Seraphim Rose say this at the end of his life?

Exact science must presently fall upon its own keen sword...from Skepsis there is a path to "second religiousness," which is the sequel and not the preface of the Culture.

Oswald Spengler

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