A comment on some recent threads..

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


John Haluska
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Post by John Haluska »

Justin,

Please accept the following individual comments (some are yours) as my answer to your question.

Also, in deference to an individual’s post regarding “threads”, I believe that this response is more closely associated with another comment you made, in another ‘forum’, but it appears (to me anyway) to be more relevant here, in this ‘forum’.

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“I believe you are wrong in this instance. The mess is about as clear as brackish water on a foggy day.

Personally, I think that our bishops need to get out to the various parishes and let the prople know what they are doing and most of all why. They need to stop and listen to our concerns too. Although I do think that the more rabid nay sayers would not allow a reasoned discussion to take place. This has happened in a few cases already.”

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Have you read what the members of the MP have actually been saying? For an example (and by no means the only example), here's an interview with an MP participant at Nyack. In this interview he dismisses pretty much everyone (it seems) who disagrees with his position on Met. Sergius. He calls those who disagree "cruel," askers of "vapid questions," people who "could offer nothing better than traditional incantations," and even people who have a "Soviet spirit"! This type of talk is certainly not going to help heal any wounds. I agree with you that communion is inevitable, but I don't think it will be happening quickly, there are too many people who are not ready on both sides.

(Note: With respect to the “referenced” article, do some research, but READ very carefully what this clergyman of the MP has “said”.j)

Yesterday, the Orthodox Church celebrated the memory of the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia. For me, they are very strong intercessors.

Regarding his quote, referring to Metropolitan Sergius,

He calls those who disagree "cruel," askers of "vapid questions," people who "could offer nothing better than traditional incantations," and even people who have a "Soviet spirit"!

Today the Orthodox Church celebrates the Memory of Metropolitan Vladimir of Kiev, the first Martyr. An exceptional monograph, book was written about him, but I may have given it away.

My thoughts...when he was martyred, was he in any way "cruel", or an asker of "vapid questions", or a person who "could offer nothing better than traditional incantations".

Metropolitan Vladimir was NOT however, of a "Soviet spirit."

Metropolitan Cyrill of Kazan, who the Orthodox Church commemorates tomorrow said,

"Behold the bloody wounds on the bodies of the absolute prisoners of Christ's love-wounds lifted up with a meek prayer for their torturers on their lips and with the shining and unearthly joy on their faces.

Behold all the horrors of persecution, torments, tottures-every kind and every endurance of death by means of which hell has attempted to unbalance the emissaries of the Crucifired One, only deepening thereby its own defeat and disgrace."

His OWN words regarding Sergius and his declaration are most worthy to read. They diametrically oppose the above referenced clergyman's words.

John

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If you are referring to the Sergianists and union with them, then it is a matter of conscience that I speak out against this flawed notion, for it constitutes neither Truth nor Knowledge. The life of a Christian in this world is a constant struggle. Not only must we struggle with the passions, but we must also struggle against heresy and schism. No clever one-liners or a sentimental desire to unite with other Russians can change the history of the Sergianist schism. The persecuted Russian Church is and has always been the Catacomb Church. To spread the pernicious lie that this Church no longer exists is a betrayal of Christ and His Holy Martyrs, and this is precisely the lie one is spreading when one talks of union with World Orthodoxy.
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As to the unification thing.....
I'm genuinely confused. Sometimes this whole mess is referred to as unification and sometimes it's refered to as con-celebration. I wish that some one (who knows for sure) would clarify this one point.

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I agree. But, as I've said before...the clergy and the hierarchs should answer for the confusion we are in.

They are the ones that should set it straight. Because, they are the ones that are allowing the confusion.

It seems to me that are being clear; you just don't like what you are hearing. ROCOR is actively moving towards reunion with the MP whether the laity likes it or not.

So what will the "truly faithful" do? More than likely -- form another SCHISM! But what they SHOULD be doing is trusting their Bishops (who HAVE been in intimate talks with the MP).

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If the hierarchy were clear, then there would be no confused discussions about it here. Since there are such discussions(here), it goes without saying, that they(the hierarchy) are not clear with their statements.

Any rebuttals?

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No rebuttals on “my” part as I totally agree. In other clichéish words, “I am not the Lone Ranger” regarding this situation. Could it be that any of the above comments, far out speak what I was trying to get at?

I do not at all understand the need for "secrecy" in these "negotiations. Then again, I am not as deeply involved as the people who are involved in this process. Maybe we should not know what is going on. I do not know. It is just that , as has been stated by more astute individuals than myself, clarification on many parts of these negotiations appears to be of concern.

I do not expect, nor should I ask for, nor will I, any clarification. The "doubts", however, will persist until there is clarification. There must be trust in the bishops. It is just that, as is known from my own life, when nothing is mentioned and sporadic inuendo and guessing are present (curiosity?), "that" is what fuels distrust and problems.

For being human, I apologize and ask foriveness for any offense I may infer or write or say.

In my own rather simplistic thought...

"If" the Moscow patriarchate, and the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia are "one" and have been "one"; the Moscow patriarchate is referred to as "the mother church"; shouldn't there be TRUST, and no secrecy?

There already is concelebration and "prayerful communion" (whatever that is, as it is a prerequisite to any Liturgy to involve prayer).

Regarding so-called "mother church", when was the last...first...time anyone has not had TRUST in their mother?

Also regarding a statement by the author of the question posed to me which said, "...The whole goal is one Russian Church..", is in error.

There always has been, and will always be, ONE Russian Orthodox Church!

A "Russian Church", by its delineation infers a "nationalistic" church, NOT the Orthodox Church of of which the Russian Orthodox Church is part.

Spiritually, as is known to everyone from the highest hierarch all the way down to me, the lowest layman, prayer transcends all boundaries and neither time nor distance separates anyone from prayer. I pray for the people in Russia, as we all do in the Liturgy. We are not separated at all.

John

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Although I do think that the more rabid nay sayers would not allow a reasoned discussion to take place. This has happened in a few cases already.

HKaterina,

I don't think most of the "more rabid nay sayers" :) would be interested in a discussion, but I would hope they would use the idea of a discussion as an oportunity to express why they are against a union. I believe these people...and I would be one of them if I was in the ROCOR, but then if I was in, I would be out...so what that was a pointless remark ;)...so I think these people, in the absence of some great new revelation, already feel they know enough and have thier minds made up; and all opinions being equal (and of course everyone feels their opinion is best) this is as legitimate of one as any.

So given that a person would have such an opinion, I would HOPE and PRAY that they are "rabid", after all, we are talking about the Church. The problem of course is that society trains people to think nothing is more worthwhile than peaceful relationships with others, so being zealous for ANYTHING to such an extent that you would make someone else uncomfortable, well, that is just plain silly. But St. Peter and St. Paul would disagree. The trouble is that people either mix their passions into it, and or are just perceived as doing so; so lets separate the passion from the position.

Just some more rambling thoughts.

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Sean
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Post by Sean »

For my own shortcomings, I ask all of you for your forgiveness, but it does seem very conspicuous that the only responses many of you can give to me when I bring to your attention the fact that the Catacomb Church still exists (and that the whole move towards union with active ecumenists is founded on the lie that it doesn't), are sentimentally- fueled, retorical questions about my own personal level of compassion. I want all of us to be together, but we must be united together in the Spirit and Truth of Orthodoxy. We all have personal sins, but we can have no part whatsoever in heresy. Regardless of your personal sentiments, the Fathers of the Church teach us that even the blood of martyrdom will not blot out the stain of heresy.
Simply because a large group of heresiarchs, with money, power, and numbers, get together and say "I'll recognize you if you recognize me," they are no more canonical than any other religious body which teaches contrary to the Fathers. No one is bringing love and compassion for others into question here.

Ekaterina
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Post by Ekaterina »

Sean:
I don't know why you took my initial post as directed towards you. It most certainly was not! Nor do I think that you should take the comments that followed as an attack on you, I certainly did not take it as such and I don't believe others felt that way either.

Milla was right when she said that it's interesting how people read things. It saddens me that you feel the way you do. But you also have to see this as a way to air people's fears, concerns etc. No one said you are wrong, nor did anyone say you were right. But perhaps you did influence someone lurking or posting. Who knows?

Don't get disheartened, we are all seeking the Truth of God.

Katya

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Sean
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Post by Sean »

Ekaterina wrote:

Sean:
I don't know why you took my initial post as directed towards you. It most certainly was not! Nor do I think that you should take the comments that followed as an attack on you, I certainly did not take it as such and I don't believe others felt that way either.

Milla was right when she said that it's interesting how people read things. It saddens me that you feel the way you do. But you also have to see this as a way to air people's fears, concerns etc. No one said you are wrong, nor did anyone say you were right. But perhaps you did influence someone lurking or posting. Who knows?

Don't get disheartened, we are all seeking the Truth of God.

Katya

Thank you, Sister. I stand behind all the previous statements I made, but I apologize for second-guessing you.

Ekaterina
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Post by Ekaterina »

I was trying to find an appropriate responce to OOD when this thread got somewhat derailed ..... however, I think I have found what might be appropriate.....

OOD said

Quote:
Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of God.


...which would be distinctly different than judging what is truth and knowledge, I sure hope.

Yes, but.....Knowing is not understanding. There is a great difference between knowing and understanding: you can know a lot about something and not really understand it.

Katya

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Ekaterina,

Here I thought you forgot about me. ;)

Yes, but.....Knowing is not understanding. There is a great difference between knowing and understanding: you can know a lot about something and not really understand it.

This is very true. And of all the things we "know" about, the Church is the one thing we might "understand" the least...the church as a whole that is. However, the Church militant, that is, the Church on earth, we know and understand quite allot because we have the example of Christ and the Holy Fathers, who clearly taught us so we could "understand" many things. One particular point they were all unambiguous and unanamous about was among the most important; and it was important because it separated truth from error, good from evil - and this is that we cannot, absolutley cannot, have communion with heretics; those preaching something other than Orthodoxy (the true Christian faith).

Many people today would have us believe we should not trust ourselves to knwo the faith and that this is best left to "scholars" and "theologians", but this is a great lie. It is the Lord who uses the weak and the foolish to "confound the wise". I shall judge the bishop and the layperson. The sheep are rational and not irrational, so that no layman may ever say that, "I am a sheep, and not a shepherd, and I give no account of myself, but the shepherd shall see to it, and he alone shall pay the penalty for me." For even as the sheep that follows not the good shepherd shall fall to the wolves unto its own destruction, so too it is evident that the sheep that follows the evil shepherd shall acquire death; for he shall utterly devour it. Therefore, it is required that we flee from
destructive shepherds. - Apostolic Constitutions, 10:19

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