Is anyone else having problems at OrthodoxChristianity.net?

[Joe Zollars]

ania, some, certainly not all, of the sociopolitical policies of the postfall Government in Russia, especially under putin, have had a particularly socialist slant. Of course New Deal America has no room to talk in this regard.

Joe Zollars

[Gregory2]

But what to make of St John Maximovitch's claim that one cannot deny the presence of God or the Grace of God in the sacraments of the Moscow Patriarchate church? I read that he made such claims, when talking to people about the "jurisdictions." Indeed, while he was bishop of Shanghai, he obeyed the order to commemorate the bishops of the MP.

(Interestingly, he disobeyed the order to stop commemorating the ROCOR bishops, for which he was locked out of his church in Shanghai! -- good for him, I say )

[mwoerl]

i dont want to offend anyone, but pospielovsky's book is so biased as to be practically worthless as far as coming to any conclusions about sergianism, communist control of the church, etc. he is fanatically opposed to the rocor, and makes unsubstantiated statements about it, as well as outright fabrications. he also has a penchant for "half-truths" and leaving out information that was easily available to him, and probably known to him that unfortunately did not fir his agenda. his book is not history, but opinion.
two small examples-he mentions three bishops of the russian church at the time of the 1917-1918 sobor-met antony khrapovitsky (whome he styles "the right winger") , abp platon (whom he styles the "moderate", and abp arseny (whom he styles "the liberal")-saying that all three had a positive opinion of fr george shavelsky. he then goes on to mention that in the voting for the patirarch of moscow at the 1917-1918 sobor, abp arseny came in 3rd-by which posspielovsky obviously hopes to somehow "legitimize" abp arseny's "liberal" positions...yet he fails to mention that met antony khrapovitsky, later first head of rocor, came in first in the voting (patirarch tikhon was later selected by the drawing of lots...)
also, he quotes from archbishop leonty extensively in the appendix, but never mentions this abp leonty was a hierarch of rocor...
michael woerl

[mwoerl]

what to make of st john of shanghai's pronouncement that one cannot deny that the mp has grace? do not misunderstand me, but there is this penchant of people to take quotes from various saints, and somehow feel these things that were said are somehow equal to gospel truth...saint john also helped to consecrate a new calendar bishop (teofil ionescu, who incidentally, is the new calendar bishop that assisted abp seraphim (ivanov) of rocor consecrate the first in the current line of greek old calendar bishops...does that mean-oh, never mind...)-should we then all approve of the new calendar? he helped to consecrate a western rite bishop...should everyone approve the western rite? many saints also made moral and spiritual statements, sayings, and exhortations that no one heeds anymore...as well as statements that are today considered "not pc"-just because "a saint said it" dont mean it aint so....
michael woerl

[priestmark]

what to make of st john of shanghai's pronouncement that one cannot deny that the mp has grace?

Michael and I were baptised on the same day and spent our first Pascha together, and have been co-members and celebrated feasts with each other in parishes in at least 5 different states. We're pretty much sympatico, although he is able to make more free expression. His presence on this forum gives me some hope for relief from the inexperienced over-zealousness I have been seeing here lately (particularly from those not even Orthodox yet).

As a member of our diocesan board Michael was present at a clergy conference a few years ago when this very issue arose. I don't know however if he was there when Archbp Alypy stated the corollary to this snippet from St John about not being able to deny Grace. Our inability to deny Grace is a truth, but the overly-zealous in their rush to a black or white judgement, miss the very important corollary: We also cannot confirm that they do have Grace. This last point is also missed by the overly-zealous of a different bent - those for immediate intercommunion/concelebration. Fanatics both.

I repeat the quotation from Fr Andrew in England I made last month:

"As before, we shall continue, unperturbed by enemies from all sides who over the years have hated us and attempted to hijack and disfigure the Orthodox Christian Tradition that we have inherited and to which we are faithful. As before we shall continue to tread the royal path, the middle way, resisting the extremes of narrow-minded fanaticism, be it the intolerant liberal variety or the sectarian isolationist variety. The Church will go on, and the gates of hell will not prevail.

Priest Andrew Phillips, Seekings House"

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another bit of evidence that not everything is black or white:

In a letter of 1934, St. Kyril says that
"the Mysteries performed by Sergianists who are correctly ordained and not proibited to serve as priests, are undoubtedly saving Mysteries for those who receive them with faith, in simplicity, without deliberations and doubts concerning their efficacy, and who do not even suspect anything incorrect in the Sergianist order of the Church. But at the same time they serve for judgment and condemnation for the very performers of them and for those who approach them well understanding the untruth that exists in Sergianism, and by their lack of opposition to it reveal a criminal indifference towards the mocking of the Church. This is why it is essential for an Orthodox Bishop or priest to refrain from communion with Serianists in prayer. The same thing is essential for laymen who have a conscious attitude to all the details of church life."

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Makes a good case for being simple and believing, instead of being complex and conscious of all the details of church life, huh?

As far as I can tell, the MP refuses to reject and condemn Segianism - no matter what spin some liberals put on the weasel words of MP hierarchs - and this refusal is a deal breaker for any legitimate (holy) union.

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excerpts from a recent letter to me by a ROCA priest:

"Our beloved and suffering Church is at a moment of crisis. There are those in our Russian Church Abroad who would rush into immediate union with the Moscow Patriarchate. They seem to have an immeasurable drive to unite and enter into communion at all costs. Any opposition to their agenda of fanaticism is discredited and it becomes apparent that they have become betrayers of our legacy. I am very concerned about this.. Certainly, perhaps when the MP repents and withdraws from the ecumenical movement, we might be able to discuss things. But, it seems to me, now is the time for prayer, reflection and tremendous sobriety.

"I know that the forces who are ready to betray our church have amassed many supporters. Yet, I honestly believe that the majority are not of such character..."

It is now 40 days until the meeting in Nyack New York. I have the intention of reading an akathist to St John of Shanghai and SF every day until that event. I beg those of you who have decided that an unholy union is a done deal to help us, by your prayers.

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Conversely, I have also been made aware of the following from a notorious priest posting under the cover of a secret alias. I think this reveals that those who are trying to drag us all into premature union would no longer be a force of division were the MP to simply act and let them join with them as they have been trying:

"various clergy and churches of ROCOR have sought to enter patriarchy but patriarchy is not responding."

[joselauro]

Their forum is full of coptic heretics pretending to be orthodox.
I created a topic saing that "Oriental Orthodox are not orthodox" and they deleted it. :shock:

P.S. See also our forum!
http://ortodoxiabrasil.iforums.com.br

[TomS]

Their forum is full of coptic heretics pretending to be orthodox.
I created a topic saing that "Oriental Orthodox are not orthodox" and they deleted it. :shock:

P.S. See also our forum!
http://ortodoxiabrasil.iforums.com.br

So? This board is full of individuals belonging to "traditional" schismatic groups outside of the Orthodox Church.