Waldemar asks, What if Saint Seraphim of Sarov Resurrected?

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OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Waldemar,

Again, never at any time have I "judged" anyone (at least as far as this topic line goes :( ).

I have said that because of heresy a bishop is not an orthodox bishop and therefore cannot have the Mysteries of the Church. And that since the Grace of the Church flows through the bishops, Orthodox Christians recognize that the Grace of the Church does not exist among those who follow heretic bishops.

This is far and away from all the qoutes and accusations you have tendered.

Is the shepherd a heretic? Then he is a wolf! You must flee from
him; do not be deceived to approach him even if he appears gentle
and tame. Flee from communion and conversation with him
even as you would flee from a poisonous snake. Homily Fifteen, 10,
Saint Photius the Great

;)

Waldemar
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Post by Waldemar »

Again, never at any time have I "judged" anyone (at least as far as this topic line goes ).

I have said that because of heresy a bishop is not an orthodox bishop and therefore cannot have the Mysteries of the Church. And that since the Grace of the Church flows through the bishops, Orthodox Christians recognize that the Grace of the Church does not exist among those who follow heretic bishops.

If you have not judged, then it must be your bishop who has judged that only those within his jurisdiction are the Church and those outside of said jurisdiction are gracelesss, without the Mysteries. Then it seems to me that this bishop is a schismatic as well as a pretender to the Judgement Seat of the Lord Jesus Christ. Shades of neo-papal patriarchalism! (At long last I get to use my new vocab word!)

Scanning through the exhaustively covered territory of these forums of I see the accusations of "You are heretics" vs. "You are schismatics." I hardly want to revisit those useless debates.

We are taught to flee from heretics. We are taught to flee from schismatics.

And so we flee from each other even as we continue meet in forums such as this one and run into each other when we are not looking for each other as we walk on this Earth on the road to salvation. (How I have been helped in the "working out" of my own salvation by my contacts with the brothers and sisters in (especially) the ROCOR, the printeries of HOCNA, ROAC and the good Old Calendar Greeks at easternchristiansupply!)

Like it or not we are fellow-strugglers.

I cannot see how I am devoid of grace with the help that I have already received of my "walled off" and "cut off" brethren. There are gaps in your wall and ties that still bind us.

I hope that you would see or sense this communion, but it appears that you are not allowed to.

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Seraphim Reeves
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Post by Seraphim Reeves »

Waldemar,

If (or is that when?) St. Seraphim is resurrected in Russia would he be considered a Sergianist, Ecumenist, Modernist if he does not repudiate the MP and those jurisdictions in communion with the MP?

That's a hypothetical I can only take about as seriously as the notion of him also embracing the Non-Chalcedonians as brothers. Without any way of knowing what exactly will happen in such an event, my guess is such a miracle itself would be the herald of repentence for Russia - both of ecclessiastics, and also the people themselves. Should that happen, I have little doubt the great St.Seraphim would embrace the "MP".

As for the passages you cite from the Holy Fathers...

Wherefore a man can know nothing about the judgments of God.

Which is precisely why it is illicit to presume the mysteriological grace of those ostensibly outside of the Church, whether Sergianists, Ecumenists, Papists, Protestants, etc.

OTOH, there is no private judgement involved in respecting the God-breathed canons and the real borders and limits they place upon the confession of the faith, and the genuine unity only such a confession can provide.

If we were to take your misrepresentation of patristic guidance to heart, then we would have little choice but to discard of all of the Church's symbols of faith, holy canons, anathemas, etc.

I believe that it is against the instruction of Christ to judge Orthodox Christians about their status within the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, especially with a presumptuous "He/She is on the Outs while I'm definitely on the In" attitude.

All heretics and schismatics have claimed to be "true believers" and within the bosom of the Church - yet this is not how they were regarded by the confessors of their times, even prior to the concilliar vindication of said confessors and martyrs.

Nothing wrong with recognizing heresy. I had hoped that quotations that I posted from our Saints would cause some on this forum to recognize the glaring heresy that one may make the judgement that belongs to Christ alone.

The expulsion of heretics or cessation of communion with bodies corrupted by (or through indifference, maintaining communion with) heresy is obviously a "judgement" which the Church has seen fit to make in times past, and I submit continues to do. I'd also put forward that such is ultimatly a judgement of God, and not merely a matter of human decision ("for without me, you can do nothing".)

If you have not judged, then it must be your bishop who has judged that only those within his jurisdiction are the Church and those outside of said jurisdiction are gracelesss, without the Mysteries. Then it seems to me that this bishop is a schismatic as well as a pretender to the Judgement Seat of the Lord Jesus Christ. Shades of neo-papal patriarchalism! (At long last I get to use my new vocab word!)

Given that the Church has condemned men by name, I find your exegesis on the Biblical command not to indulge in private judgement to be unconvincing.

I hope that you would see or sense this communion, but it appears that you are not allowed to.

There's a terrible presumption involved in men of little experience or sanctity pretending to know the hidden activities or decisions of God - that somehow I have the insight to detect signs of grace in the temples of the Papists, or the on-goings of Sergianists. However, what we do have are the Symbols of the Faith, and the Holy Canons which do provide legitimate guidance regarding the limits of the Church, and by default, the presence of the unique activities of the Church (in particular, the stewardship of the Holy Mysteries.) The idea that I somehow have a role in saving those (possibly) being ministered to by God in ways I can hardly imagine, that they NEED my recognition for God to take care of them, is the height of self importance. This is aside of course from the fact that there would be terrible consequences in sweeping recognitions (in violation of the canons) of non-Orthodox bodies, even IF I could know there were those within them somehow receiving the mysteries of the Church (which we cannot) - the acceptance of heresy, schism, anti-canonicity as the norm, etc. This of course having the consequence of not only harming the heterodox, but undoing the work of the Church Herself.

In essence, the above is ecumenism - and precisely why Orthodox can have nothing to do with the communion of heresy often called "canonical Orthodoxy".

Seraphim

Waldemar
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Post by Waldemar »

There's a terrible presumption involved in men of little experience or sanctity pretending to know the hidden activities or decisions of God ...

I couldn't have put it any better. You put my verbosity to shame. This is what I should have said earlier.

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Post by fserafim »

The MP is not my cup of tea (British understatement) but I constantly see evidence of God's grace working through the modern-day MP-related ascetics of Russia. Matushka Nila of Voskresensk (reposed 1999) and Elder Savva of Pskov (1982) are examples. There are many more.

Any one who visits Diveyevo can testify to the sanctity of the convent. Go see for yourself.

Fr Serafim

p.s. in the JP-related to MP, there are contemporary saints too at St Savva's Monastery.

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Father Seraphim,

With the upmost respect, I am sure there are a great many pious people among the Latins and the Ethiopians, and I would not at all be surprised, if I could but see with my sinful eyes, that God's Grace works among them too, but not they do not have the Grace of the Church.

And if we allow ourselves to be swayed this way and that by "miracles", feelings, or "even an angel from heaven", and allow ourselves to be a part of their perversions of Holy Orthodoxy, well then all is lost.

What excuse will we have then when we have been taught very clearly and precisely that we are to have no communion with heretics under any circumstances? What tradition allows communion based what we think we see, and not what is publically confessed?

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Seraphim Reeves
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Post by Seraphim Reeves »

OOD,

And if we allow ourselves to be swayed this way and that by "miracles", feelings, or "even an angel from heaven", and allow ourselves to be a part of their perversions of Holy Orthodoxy, well then all is lost.

I can only add an "amen" to this comment, based upon my own experience, in this case of more "traditional" forms of Roman Catholicism.

For a few years I traveled through Tridentine/"Traditionalist" Roman Catholic circles, and beheld many things which could easily give warm sentiments. I met papist clergy (indeed, "more Catholic than the Pope") who were extremely sincere and dedicated to their way of life as far as I could tell, and took very seriously the ministration of their services. I still remember the great solemnity and reverence of their Masses, the incence etc. I even attended the much more elaborate services at a "traditionalist" seminary and at a school ran by these same persons, including Pontifical High Masses, etc. On an aesthetical level, it would be hard not to be impressed...and once again, I would have a very hard time doubting the sincerity of these folks.

I've smelled the fragrant chrism used by the Tridentinist bishops, I've felt the slap on the cheek at my "confirmation", I've beheld the kindness and generosity of many "traditionalist Catholics" and observed the great lengths they go to practice their religion (indeed, my immediate family are amongst these people.)

I could also go on about my experiences with monastics associated with the Tridentine/"traditionalist" movement in the RCC, how generally these people were very kind and dedicated, etc.

Yet, the truth of the matter is they are not Orthodox. They sincerely believe many good things, but also many vile falsehoods. As a result, there is one thing which is quite clear, by their own admission - they are not members of the Orthodox Church.

I have a soft spot for these people, particularly since I number both friends and family with them. But as bitter as it is to say, they are not Orthodox. They are not members of the Holy Church, the Body of Christ.
I could speculate vainly about the hidden activity of God in their midst, about the possible presence of mysteriological grace. But this would only be a snare - since the truth is, we can really only speak about "holy mysteries" if we are also speaking of "holy Church" - the divorce between the two being a purely Papist invention which reduces the sacraments to "hocus pocus", magical rites which can somehow be taken into capitivity, into which God's hand can be forced.

Seraphim

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